A way to get more life out of AAs

[EZ_Qutsemnie]

I wonder if they ever thought about viewing AAs as skills with a cap of 2x number of AAs you earned after you purchased the AA skill + 5.

see what im saying?

Instead of making triple attack backstab a 24 point AA (this is for example)

They can make it a 3 pt aa. With a starting skill cap of 5.

then for each AA you earn after that you get 2 more added to the skill cap. This is a skill cap such as you might view duel wield starting at 5xlevel + 5. Except here its aa after you earn your skill.

The AA doesnt have to be spent in triple attack. But skill has to be earned after each ping.

The translation of skill to % chance check is left to balance.

I wouldnt do every skill like this but its a way to add more life to the AA scheme. In fact I would prolly limit it to one skill per an expansion.


Triple backstab is a good one.

with 2x AA earned after you purchased it + 5. Even people not that interested in alot of the new AAs would have reason to grind out a 124AAs to get to the triple backstab skill cap of 252 skill.

Its a way of making stuff reallly expensive without making it reallly expensive.

Tricky aye.

The beauty of it is it address the fact that rogues with alot of AAs dont do more damage then rogues with a few AAs.

By making a trademark AA skill of the expansion such that you have to grind 124AAs to max triple attack you make it so that rogues scale by how much AA they earn. But the 124 AA doesnt get spent in triple attack it gets spent in what ever you want. You just need to earn 124AA to get to the backstab triple attack skill cap of 252. this makes it blend beautifully with PoP AA.

Its a beautiful idea.


Edited by: Qutsemnie at: 1/15/04 9:31 pm

[EZ_Srath the Claw]

I don't like the idea of having to grind more. WHy would I want to do 124aa if I can do it in 24aa?????? Unless you love grinding over and over, I sure as heck do not though. Edited by: Srath the Claw at: 1/15/04 9:38 pm

[DarthEnderX]

I can honestly say I'm having difficulty grasping exactly what your "idea" is. But the gist seems to involve making skills cost in excess of 100 AAs, in which case I can only say...are you out of your @#%$ mind?

[EZ_Qutsemnie]

"WHy would I want to do 124aa if I can do it in 24aa??????"

Ill field the question though im not sure you intended for it to be answered.


Because you cant have it for 24AAs. Thats prolly the simplist reason.

But let me back up to put it all in context.

What if I told you that nobody over level 50 were capable of doing more damage then a level 65 by design. Lets say retroactively we made it so every level 50 rogue did the same damage as a 65 rogue so the only thing you were grinding for after 50 was more resistance and HPs and mitigation but all the damage advantage was gone. The justification is nobody that is level 50 would want to grind out 15 more hard levels for damage. Im not a fan of grinding. Your not a fan of grinding. Why make damage cost that much?

Lets say that EQ was designed that way.

By the tone I think your immediate response would be:
thats great I dont have to grind out 65 and I can still do the same damage. This is a better game.


But then lets say you grind out 65 anyway. Dont you feel like you should do more damage?


The AA as they are really dont give more damage to people that "grind out 65". 24AA isnt that restrictive. Everyone gets it eventually. And then as you say they can stop.

But now lets say you continue grinding AA. Shouldnt you do more damage then the rogue that doesnt grind?

What im presenting to you is this:
Theres no way to get a DPS advantage by grinding after GoD is released through AA beyond the 24aas and some slight effects of procing.


Rogue AAs have always had this problem. Either they would have to make an endless amount of damage AAs so you never got to build any other abilities or there is no distinction amoung rogue DPS via dps cause the dps AAs are so easy and cheap to buy.

But theres a way around that. And i presented it.

A way to make rogues more damaging then rogues that dont grind without using an endless sea of damage AAs. AA based skills.


Also incidently in future expansions with 1 such skill per an expansion a rogue playing catchup would gain synergy under the system which is a good thing imo. Theres a difference between seperating rogues in the present and creating a huge unscalable wall for rogues in the future. With AA skills two (or more skills would rise at once) so a future rogue would be maxed at 124AAs ground out after they began the journey.

[EZ_Qutsemnie]

"I can honestly say I'm having difficulty grasping exactly what your "idea" is. But the gist seems to involve making skills cost in excess of 100 AAs, in which case I can only say...are you out of your @#%$ mind? "

Ill field this one too.

Its a fundamentally new idea in EQ. Its motivated by the relationship between skills and levels.


You know how your duelwield skill cap goes up each time you ding?

The idea is you purchase triple backstab for 3AA and it skill caped at 5.

Then each AA you earn after that raises your triple backstab skill cap by 2.


The AA however isnt spent in triple backstab. You could spend it in stickyfingers for example.


This system would distinguish rogues beyond 24AA in terms of DPS. But your not actually spending the AA on dps. Your spending it on whatever you want. Stickyfingers/mug whatever. All of them earned after purchasing the skill would raise the skill cap on triple backstab by 2.

After 124AA you would hit the triple backstab cap of 252 and hopefully be notable more damaging then a rogue that has only 24AA even though YOU DIDNT SPEND 124AA on triple backstab itself.

Because of the slow steep ramp they could be more generous with the power of a maxed triple backstab skill then they could with 24 AAs.

And also it side steps the issue of how to compare prices for PoP AA and this new AA cause they are apples and oranges and not mutually exclusive.

[EZ_Qutsemnie]

Ok heres another way to look at it.


Lets say you can purchase the GoD skill as it sits now for 24AA and you get it unchanged. Its just as powerful as it would have been.


Now. What if every AA you earn after you purchased it for 24AA just made it slightly more powerful even though you never spend any more AAs in it.

Why would you object to that? Its free to rogues and its only bonus on top of what is already in the works for rogues.


Thats exactly what im presenting.

[DarthEnderX]

Okay, why don't you try using a different example. Use an AA we already have.

And by your example, do the AA points you refer to still take as much XP to earn as the do currently?

And for @#%$ sake try and keep it under a paragraph. Edited by: Ravenwinged Angel at: 1/15/04 10:43 pm

[DarthEnderX]

Okay, I think I got it.

Your saying that AAs should be "skills" rather than just AA abilities, and for every AA you spend after the initial investment, your max skill cap in that skill goes up 2 point. So your right, I'm not spending 124AAs for Triple Backstab, I'm spending 124AA for the ABILITY to then work up my triple backstab SKILL!

And to that, I can only say, your out of your @#%$ mind. Even if I were able to score a triple backstab EVERY TIME I backstabbed, it still would not be worth 124 AAs. Your concept of what an ability should be worth in XP time is completely ludacris.

You seem like the type who must agree with the old "Vision" where nothing can be fun, and everything has to take so long that it sucks all the enjoyment out of it.

Frankly, 24 points is already too much for any skill I've seen in this game.

[DarthEnderX]

You...you know what. Just...just talk to the hand. Allright.

[EZ_Qutsemnie]

"and for every AA you spend after the initial investment,"

easy im still with ya =).


look at the quoted piece Im going to change one word because that one word is the difference between what you think im saying and what im actually trying to say.

you said:
"and for every AA you spend after the initial investment,"
now changing one word:
"and for every AA you *earn* after the initial investment,"

thats what im saying. Im not talking about a skill that cost you 124 AAs im talking about a skill that gets more powerful as you earn more AA.


edit:
the developers could really just avoid this by not making you purchase triple backstab at all. HAve all the mechanics be hidden. Everyone thats 65 and has GoD activated implicitly has the AA skill of the expansion for their class. Then every AA you earn progresses the skill cap by 2. Because the mechanices are hidden its less confusing. The fact that they didnt charge for the skill wouldnt be a relevant cost in the big picture.



Edited by: Qutsemnie at: 1/15/04 11:20 pm

[EZ_Jessper233]

so you want it so that you spend 24 in triple BS then as your total AA goes up triple backstab goes off more even though you don't spend points in it?

Sounds like a "let us use ragebringer in range!!!11!!" post to me.

[EZ_Qutsemnie]

Its the exact opposite.

The moving rage to range suggestion was designed to flatten uber rogue dps advantage. Im suggesting the opposite.

edit: to be fair there are really 3 possibilities here.
1) the ultra flat rogue dps AA model that has been in place since AA has come out. With very little to no differentiation amoungst rogues with more AA beyond the first few.
2) the hybrid idea I put forth. Where you gain dps just for gaining AA up to the 124th earned.
3) the ultra delinated model where there are 124 offensive AAs per an expansion.

Now you said my idea was more "ranging rage" And relative to #3 it is. But important to note is #3 has never existed. The developers have used #1 the ultra flat rogue DPS through AA model. And relative to #1, #2 is definatly not "ranging rage". Its creating and inviting delination with some positive trade offs. And thats the realistic way to look at #2 until #3 becomes a realistic proposition or atleast until someone advocates #3. Are you advocating putting in 124 AAs worth of offensive AAs for rogues in GoD? Im not. The question is are you? Because thats critical to calling my idea "ranging rage" Edited by: Qutsemnie at: 1/15/04 11:55 pm

[EZ_Kalaks Fantasia]

I personally loved this game when I dinged first time to 60 and I thought I don't ever have to grind exp again.

And I could just focus on raiding / helping people do their stuff, kill something cool and have fun.

Then they introduced the AA...


I got 74 so far, going to grind far beyond 100 I guess. My comfort is though, that in general the rogue AAs aren't that much make or break it. And some are just blatantly stupid to start with (double riposte as CLASS level AA, hello??).


Kalaks

[EZ_Jessper233]

Yes, your hybrid idea is like saying make me do more damage, even if it applys to other classes. I am fine with the projected AA from beta server atm.

Look at a rogue with 300aa vs a rogue with none, you will see a difference in grouping and raiding. Maybe not in strait dps but the saying does go a dead rogue does no dps.

As stated before I am fine with the current look of AAs in GoD.

[EZ_EppiesGurl]

Amen Kalaks!!!!
EPPIE'S GEAR

[EZ_Granart]

Quote:I personally loved this game when I dinged first time to 60 and I thought I don't ever have to grind exp again.

And I could just focus on raiding / helping people do their stuff, kill something cool and have fun.

Then they introduced the AA...
There are two sides of the coin apparently.
Anyone ever thought of why you don't have all AA's, you haven't finished all quests and why you don't have the best possible equip/gear in game?
I'm not a dev but it's most likely because that's not how EQ is intended to be. Every 'stage' ingame there are things to improve things to look forward to things to work for, or that's how it's supposed to be in 'the perfect eq'. Guilds need to constantly progress blahbalblah.

I'm sure SoE wants to give us as many aa's as possible --that we really want to grind for-- but without any real improvements.
And I personally agree with the many aa's part because I want to have something to grind for after 100, 200, 300, aa's or whatever. I don't want one 15 points to max aa so I wont have to grind ever again until the next expanision.
What I would like to see are aa's that really matter but make them cost. I play a bard, say if I with 300 AA's could do 220 dps nuking. Say if a wizard spent the same aa's he'd do 400. Sure it wouldn't be fun for the level 65 baron wizzy but this 500 aa'd bard and wizard are freakin level 100.
Hehe and no I haven't maxed all aa's or whatever I just want more aa's that I actually care about and since SoE apparently ran out of ideas they could just make somewhat powerful but expensive aa's
Edited by: Granart at: 1/16/04 6:21 am

[EZ_Dazzler Twodirks]

So a Rogue with just about ALL thier AA skills maxed ( should be one or two by now ) buys Triple Backstab for 24AA now has to purchase ANOTHER 124AA's to get it to work as intended?

Why not just have it level 65 then? Dazzler Twodirks High Speed Quisinart for Hire
Guildleader of the Blades of Honor.
Monsters Slain, Pockets Picked, Corpses Dragged, and more.
No job too small, no fee too large
Card Carrying Member of The Safehouse.
Classes are not that out of balance -AbsorEQ

Dazzlers Shtuff

[DarthEnderX]

Oh oh OH!

Now I get it. The skill cap goes up as I earn more AAs, but I don't have to spend them in Triple Backstab. I can spend them on other abilities. Its just my cap is based on my total number of earned AAs.

Well, thats not so bad, but it sounds needlessly complicated.

[EZ_Fitz]

hehe even though I am not one of the rogues with this problem, there are some with max AA already...so any consideration for this would have to be based off total AA and not AA earned after buying the skill. When you consider that, you know this can never happen because then some rogues would have max skills from day one and SOE hates that.

Furthermore, all your posts seem to be trying to take away the power of what you percieve to be "uber rogues". Face it, EQ is and always will be equipment driven for melee. The game system does not allow that to be different. A lot of times, the difference between "uber" rogues and non "uber" rogues is time and energy invested into their character. With the clothed server moves today, thats even more the case. No online game can possibly survive with a level of communism allowing casual gamers to be as equally powerful as hard core gamers....then there would be no incentive to play.
My Slowly Improving Stuff!

[EZ_RumbleRZ]

I think the difference between level 50 rogues and level 65 rogues and the difference between hardcore 65 rogues and casual 65 rogues is handled more than sufficiently thru itemization. Quite a few of us will never see an 18 dmg weapon (pending expansions), there is no reason to make the desparity that much more.

Point being, any fool can be carried to 300+ aa's in a group if he/she has the time to sit their for 8-12 hours a day and do it. (I have friends in PoTime enabled guilds that I've heard complain about fools in their guilds so I can say I know this to be true). You'll get better gear than most of us, leave us our skills, plz? -Gharrm Touch-
Rogue of Brell
Rallos Zek
"What is crueler? To let a wound of the heart fester, or simply cut it out?"

[EZ_Wristie]

Raven finally got the idea that the original poster was presenting, but it seems to have fallen woefully short for others here...

I'll try my hand at explaining what he means about the AA scaling. (Let me also say I'm not for or against the idea -- still considering the full ramifications before I weigh in...)

Let's pretend for a second that there is only ONE rogue Damage increasing AA. Let's pretend it was Ambidex. Ambidex costs 9 points. So in a fairly short time, ALL rogues, be it one that have 20 AAs or ones that have 520AAs will deal roughly the same damage (assuming similar buffs/weapons/etc). Why is that? Simple -- because whether you had 20 ro 520 AAs you made DAMN SURE you bought your one and only DPS upgrade.

What is being suggested, and again -- I don't agree or disagree -- just trying to help explain what the original idea was --- is that you would purchase an AA for some cost, but it wouldn't be full strength. It would give you some base skill level in that AA. In the case of triple BS, you start with some base skill (he suggested 5) with a cap of 252. You don't have to work up the skill to have it improve, you simply just get more AAs in ANYTHING. So a rogue with 50 AAs would have had to buy Triple BS for say 5 AAs, giving him a skill of 5 in Triple BS. And since he has 95 other AAs (in Escape, SoS, whatever) he gets 2 skill level points per AA, so he ends up with a skill of 95 in Triple BS. Another rogue who (in the original posters eyes) worked harder and spent more hours grinding and accumulated 150 AAs, would be rewarded, because although he had the exact SAME damage AAs as the 50 AA rogue, his Triple BS skill would be at the cap of 252.

It's simply another way that someone is suggesting that those who work hardest on their toons should be the most powerful toons.

As to whether you agree or disagree with whether that should be the case.... that's a whole 'nother can o' worms my friends...

--Wristie McArmbreaker
Redeemed Epic Deceiver of 65 Schemes
(and 40 sub-schemes) (which incidently would give me a paltry 75 skill in Triple BS...) :-P
<Night Wolves> Officer
Fennin R() server

[Nenjin]

Ya hear that Raven? You are woeful. <point> "I see a dark sail, on the horizon. Set under a black cloud, that hides the sun. Bring me my broadsword, and clear understanding. Bring me my cross of gold, as a talisman. Bless with a hard heart, those who surround me. Bless the women and children, who firm our hands. Put our backs to the north wind, hold fast by the river. Sweet memories to drive us on, of the motherland. Bring me my broadsword."-Jethro Tull

[EZ_Cattiliriel]

this would help the ones with least aa before GoD most, while giving the ones with almost all or all aa's nothing to go for really, not my cup of tea Cattiliriel of RF

[EZ_Slyy Daugg]

I think the idea sounds like fun. Like the title says.
It's a decent idea imo.

SD

[EZ_Gaav]

On the other hand, it was nice being level 50 and not having to worry about the grind, then it was great being 60 and not having to worry about the grind. Then it was level 60 and having those core AAs you want and not having to worry about the grind (I think you get the picture)

The only reason I grind AAs, is because I know that it will end, and I can do things I actually enjoy. If that end isn't until 500 AAs, well screw it I'm not gonna play. Because you know Sony isn't going to say, "Well, Ambidex gives them a 9% increase to dual wield, then they get another 1% per 10 AA...for a grand total of 59% after 500 aa." SoE is going to instead do something like this, "Well, they can gain 500 AA, and we want ambidex to give them a 9% increase in their offhand check, so lets see 10 AA for 1% increase, then every 55 AA after that will give them another 1%." Sony's job is to attempt to slow down the rate of mudflation/subscription time, not speed it up.

I also don't agree with the fact that the ability to grind out AAs should be the measuring stick of how powerful a player is, I'm much happier with the current system where all players reach a near plateau and then your guild/loot seperates you from the pack (damage wise). Not to mention that there are other ways to distinguish yourself, one of the better rogues I know mainhands ragebringer yet is often invited to group with Elem+ people? His dps may not be all that great, but he makes up for it in other ways. He's managed to make his reputation as a player what matters, not his AA count.

I doubt you'll find many Time equipped rogues that don't feel like they are signifigantly more powerful than their Sub Elem counterparts (the lower AA players). And I shudder to think what would happen when this is applied to other classes AA (wonders what a SK harmtouch would do with 500 AA invested in it). Its just not a feasible idea in EQ, maybe elsewhere it would be ok.

[EZ_DruPDM]

Quote:Tricky aye.

More like a nightmare, aye


-Dru