Rogue abilities to change with Next patch.

[EZ_Ogor]

This is obviously unofficial but I have gleamed from emails from alan, and chats with Gms that Rogue abilities in PvP are about to be tweaked with next patch. The most special of these tweaks that I have questioned them about is the hide ability. It will more than likely result in your agressor losing you as a target after you have hidden. Example.

Player A Wizard is attempting to nuke you. You seeing the warm up for the spell hide to evade the spell. You sucessfully hide. Player A Wizard loses you as a target and is about to waste mana and must interrupt himself.

Also there are some other PvP changes that will more than likly be carried over to our other PvP servers. More class balancing in PvP.

Odds Bodkins

[Kambic]

Not sure if you're aware of this, but whatever is targetted at the beginning of a cast, not the end, takes the spell, regardless of whether or not they are still the target. Now, if the Wiz gets a message "Soandso has evaded your spell" that would be cool ;p

[EZ_Ogor]

I belive what will happen, is that once you are hidden, if the spell is in progress the spell will just fail, perhaps, and hopefully expending any mana associated with it, or duck/move and interrupt himself to avoid losing mana.

Shrug we'll see. Also a few other melee PvP enhansements will be annouced in reguards to Sullen Zek. (COUGHrangersCOUGH).

Odds Bodkins

[EZ_Cylant]

If this is another rumor i'm going to scream =(
That hide change would make rogues just about the best class for vs. caster pvp. Edited by: Cylant at: 6/23/01 3:57:27 pm

[notwen]

Which is exactly *why* I'm marking it up to just another rumor, Cylant.

Notwen Gif
53 Rogue on Fennin Ro
House of Kindred
Chest Armor Upgrade Clock: 9 months 5 days trying to get out of the Ravenscale Chestguard....

[EZ_ThePoisoned]

There's another rumor going around that in the next patch, we'll be able to PP other teams on SZ. Whether it will have the 5 lvl limit like other aspects or not, have no clue. Would be amazing if it's true tho. =) "People, some good, some bad, but in the long run we come out even." - Jan Hittle
"I like to tell people I have the heart of a small boy. Then I say it's in a jar on my desk. "- Stephen King

Aconite Darkeyes
Blade of Bertoxx. Sullon Zek Ring Warden.

[EZ_Kendrick]

Hiding and Invis will take you off targetting with the next patch on Sullon

Spells cast before losing the target will resolve, so it will require some tactics to use properly.

If the person that has you targetted has See Invis, it's easy to retarget if you are in line of sight.

In addition, on Sullon, you will be able to steal coin (and ONLY coin) from other teams players, with some limitations I will leave you to discover on your own. Edited by: Kendrick at: 6/23/01 7:19:33 pm

[EZ_Ogor]

Woooo hooo! At last my petitioning rings true. Kendrick any other class enhancements I know they've been toying around with? I know rangers are up for a boost, along with paladins supposedly but I doubt it?

Odds Bodkins

[notwen]

Wow, neat... and it's only on Sullon too so I guess it isn't the far reaching changes some were hoping for so that assumption that it was "just" a rumor wasn't completely unwarranted I guess.

While it's not likely that I'd restart a rogue on Sullon, these are the kinds of things that would draw me to it.

[EZ_Flux Compasator]

When I decited to go Rogue on SZ, I knew I would end up getting ganked by casters a few times, but if this "rumor" comes true, it will be a dark day for do-gooder casters

*crosses his fingers*

EDIT: Ye're sig is just a little too big. Please refer to forum rules. Edited by: Fricka at: 6/24/01 1:01:31 pm

[EZ_Ignaviae]

Sweet,everyone will make Rogues on SZ because they can pickpocket and instant hide,I'll be the only dr00d around mass-kitting the lowest HPed mellee class :0) "We few , we happy few , we band of brothers"
Ignaviae De`Ravaillac
Karana's Prime Fashion Whore

[freonsmurf]

Dammit I decided to be a shaman!!!!!!!!

Awesome changes, why did it take so long for this?

Argh playing a rogue is so rough on pvp dont know if I can stomach it again.


Question: Ken do these changes only effect Sullon? Rodcet Nife Ring Warden

Wixramiablo Sneakypants
"Nicotine is not addictive" Tobacco Industry
"Rogues are a balanced class"-Gordon
My Sigs Edited by: FreonSmurf at: 6/24/01 1:40:35 am

[EZ_fco23]

hmmm a sk/necro with insta cast invis item (circlet of shadow) = unkillabe
=\

you mean a invis cast on rogue make a rogue untarget or what?? maybe i'm not smart enough =p Edited by: fco23 at: 6/24/01 4:09:08 am

[EZ_Cylant]

Now will people agree with me on my circlet of shadows thread?

I think these changes make sense on sullon, seeing as rogues will be very underpowered for quite some time. On the other zeks, this might make us too powerful 50+. Edited by: Cylant at: 6/24/01 5:09:38 am

[Kambic]

"Shrug we'll see. Also a few other melee PvP enhansements will be annouced in reguards to Sullen Zek. (COUGHrangersCOUGH)."

??

Ranger are pretty fierce in PvP man, what ya smokin?

[EZ_JamesVZ]

Any ranger who complains about how much they suck in pvp has an IQ of at most 10, and should be shot.

[EZ_Ogor]

Just saying that they will be reciving a possible upgrade in the next patch also though its unconfirmed.

Odds

[Fricka]

Thanks for straightening us out, Kendrick.

Removing a rogue from a caster's target has been something I've felt should be in the game for a long time. And, as you noted, a caster with see invis can retarget as long as they are in line of sight. This is a great effect because what this will do is deter those casters who were abusing line of sight in the first place by using /target name. While casters will still be able to cast through walls at least now a rogue has some kind of action they can take.

I hope this works out on Sullon and they decide to move it to the other Zeks.

As for the rangers, I don't think they need any boosting either but they can debate that on their boards as I have only played a low level ranger. Fricka of the Vallon Zek Shanks
Safehouse Ring Warden
Rogue Class member of Midgard, Dark Age of Camelot Beta 3
Fricka curtsies elegantly...while picking your pocket.
Sig Gallery

[EZ_Ugli Itchybottom]

Removing the Rogue from someone's target actually makes sense, and I would believe if only that change was stated.

The pickpocket change would be ridiculously overpowered, and frankly I won't believe it until I see something official. Imagine how many rogues would be crowded into the room where you buy T-boots.

Err hmmm, Kendrick verified. Will be interesting to see the "limitations" on this one. Edited by: Ugli Itchybottom at: 6/24/01 5:47:28 pm

[EZ_Nickk Signori VC]

I think it would be really nice if this went to live servers too. For when rogues are in PvP arenas and duels. Thats just me.

[EZ_Rebu]

Quote: Hiding and Invis will take you off targetting with the next patch on Sullon

Kendrick... do you realize just how powerful this will be?

Basically anyone who can't see invis or doesn't have a pet will be EASY pickings for a rogue.

A Rogue could just Hide/Sneak behind someone, wait enough time for hide ot be ready when you unhide, backstab and rehide instantly knocking you off target. The ONLY way to combat that would be to have see invis (spell or item) or a pet (any pet it doesn't matter, cause pets "see invis" if you hit their masters)

Don't get me wrong. I do think it is a good change, but I really don't think Verant has thought this out fully.

Try it out if you don't believe me. I guarantee I could kill anyone who does not have see invis or a pet up (unless they zone ) just on the sheer fact that Hide drops you off target and if you wait long enough Hide will reset while hidden (a VERY good thing for PvE, so if you feel like changing something to better PvP please make sure it won't adversly effect PvE in the future.) So basically you can just backstab for big damage and rehide, dropping you off target, this basically gives your opponent under a second to retaliate.

And for kicks you could really screw him over by PickPocketing at the same time .

Anyway I am glad to see changes made to try and make rogues more Pvp friendly. They already are EXTREMELY powerful in ANY kind of group PvP or PvE situation, but the 1 on 1 is a little lacking (although you really can't ask for everything and since Kunark all Rogues have really gotten is MUCH more powerful.)

Pokn 56 Rogue of Tholuxe Paells
Rebu 55 Necro of Tholuxe Paells
Demrack 52 Ranger of Povar
Zcrak 52 Shaman of Povar

[EZ_Opiation]

Hi.

[EZ_Opiation]

They should make it so hide cant be seen by see invis










Edit: Sig once per thread -Glip Edited by: Glip the Gnome at: 6/25/01 7:41:46 pm

[EZ_Dowser]

Far be it from me to make things more difficult for rogues, but why is Verant so shortsighted? This change goes beyond affecting rogues. Anyone with an instant cast invis item (and there are enough out there that this is an issue) effectively becomes impossible to target because they can repeatedly and instantly remove themselves from targetting. If the targetter has see invis, the target (be it rogue, sk, whatever) should NOT be removed from targetting. Save yourselves a patch, VI, and do this right the first time. Dowser, Minion of Bristlebane
53rd werehalfling rogue
Adjudicators of Wrath
Cazic Thule

"Spooooon!" - The Tick
"Not in the face! Not in the face!" - Arthur

[EZ_Vermintide]

Not nessecarily.

They can code this so it only works for rogues which makes sense.

Because this isn't so much a new effect given to hide, it's a way of making our ability to EVADE work in pvp. Evade is a rogue only ability linked to our hide skill.

Perhaps if you are only dropped off target on a successful evade instead of a successful hide.

I hope this works out on Sullon, and it is brought to all servers for the purposes of pvp.

The coin thing? Sure, it makes sense. Balance questions abound I'm sure.

We'll have to see how it works.

[EZ_Aerimus Shadowborn]

First off have you noticed that when you evade you don't become invisible? This could be how it works here too. Also only pally warrior rogue and cleric can't see invis and of those rogues can hide and pally and warrior can swing a big 2hs at the rogue before he moves out of range. All can get a see invis item later in the game.

[EZ_Prodigious]

sounds way overpowering to me. probably a false rumour....sigh.

edit: ooops sorry didn't see Mr. K's post

Edited by: Prodigious at: 6/26/01 12:42:19 pm

[notwen]

? /em points Prod to The Man's post.

[EZ_Stytch Yapgud]

Prod,
Kendrick already verified it

/slaps Prods wrist.
Now remember to read all the thread in future!

[Remmi]

Har! Looks like my return to EQ was well-time, indeed! 'Cept I'm gonna be on the goodie team so no dwarf fer me! BAH! *Remmi scowls* Remmi (ornery dwarven rogue and thwapper of idjits!)
--------------------------------------------

Creator of GuildBoss - Guild Manager for Windows
Founder of The Safehouse - Discussion Forums for EverQuest Rogues

[EZ_Diirk Shade]

its not overpowered at all... all you 50+s have just forgotten how slow we move sneaking ;o) heh.

[EZ_Sbik Luclin]

My question is... will they get a message when you pickpocket them, or only when you fail to pickpocket them? Sbik Swashbucklugget
Lvl 58 Wallet Inspector
The Nuggets of Justice
Luclin

[EZ_Zavion]

I know on the 'blue' servers you can /target <name> and target a rogue even if he is hidden. Hopefully the will fix this as well. This only happens when you use the hide/sneak ability. If you are invis from a ption or spell then the /target <name> does not work.

Zavion Granitegut
Master Drinker

51st Level Vicar, follower of Brell Serilis

[EZ_Valkie]

Someone said
First off have you noticed that when you evade you don't become invisible? This could be how it works here too. Also only pally warrior rogue and cleric can't see invis and of those rogues can hide and pally and warrior can swing a big 2hs at the rogue before he moves out of range. All can get a see invis item later in the game.


Wrong. Most rogues use evade with a hotkey, /attack off then /doability (hide), then /attack on, for a BRIEF second, a rogue does become invis with evade, but it fades almost instantly, because autoattack goes back on...

Valkie 28 rogue (ignore that old sig) on Tholuxe Paells

[EZ_Karlek]

now just give back the rogue the ability to wipe aggro list of a mob on hiding (perchance on sucessfull evade - meaning he was not hit in between), au pair with monk's FD skill, and maybe, just MAYBE:

the rogue class would be able to solo some (not as well as monks can, though - they have innate mend). This would never make rogue even nearly effective as necro or magician which risk just the lives of their pets in combat - but would ask for some more cunning, wit and reflexes.

Rogue is supposedly self-sustained witty character that is able to live on his own everywhere in fantasy adventure setups. Castrated EQ rogue, on the other hand, needs healer's and tank's mercy to thrive - so is quite opposite of that.

I know its too late to save the lives of all of us pre-Kunark rogues´, but methinks D&D value of the class needs get redeemed heh *whaddaheck*

Ulthien of McKennitts'
SHANKS! Elder tribal Shaman
(reincarnated agnostic rake)[i]

[EZ_Coraan]

I am excited about thses changes, and have a simple question.

Willl your attempt and/or success at Pickpocketing a player cause any type of aggro to nearby Guards or NPCS?

I ask because I know I can't attack a player standing next to a guard, and this also seems to be an aggressive action..

thanks for your replies :) - Kersed
Coraan Honorbound,Pathfinder of Final Endeavor - Tallon Zek

Kersed,Rogue of Gladius Fatalis- Sullon Zek

[Lisboa]

This is a bit overpowering. Because the idea of a warrior with a two hander is not going to work--once the rogue hides, the warrior loses the target. He doesn't get a chance to hit the rogue.
What they need to do is make is so it does not detarget you for two seconds. This way anyone without see invis has a chance to strike you where you used to be. If they miss, you successfully get off target. It also makes it more of a reflex thing. The melee must see that the enemy has hidden, turn off attack, throw his range item all within those two seconds.

[freonsmurf]

Damn people whining already and dont even have a character on the test Sullon Zek.

Get a clue and realize by lvl 12, most int casters have invis and see invis already.

Shaman have to wait till lvl 29, and clerics well they never travel alone anyway.

If ya think ppl walk around on the pvp server with 500 pp and dont have see invis up, ya show your obvious bluebie roots.

And yes if by chance some rog and war happen to be all alone and meet for a one on one battle(rarely if ever happens, with 2 mins a backup force will come running), A war wll be at a disadvantage, but who gives a damn?
If I face a mage with a earth pet, im at a major disadvantage, thats life.

Certain classes will have advantage over others and you need to react and make a desicion.

Thats life on a pvp server, it isnt some @#%$ you can whine about and get it patched.

And about stealing coin, whens the last time you stole 20pp from something other than a sand giant?

Like was said before, this aint lvl 50 RB land, this is lvl 12 giant snake fang lande, please try to remeber how that was is you havent experinced it in awhile.

Im sure a lvl 60 rog with max skill will be taking 3-4 pp per pick, at lvls before that you are not gonna be able to be some magical thief taking money from people without them knowing.

The second a rogue enters the zone with a rep for stealing, belive me the shouts will go up
"Hey that mofo thief soandso is here"
Ppl will make sure they atleast one of thier group members will have see invis.

Dont jump to conlusions, if you want to find out whats really going on, log onto Sullon Zek, I will see you there.

[EZ_Welok]

Well, I think I'm officially screwed now... I made a bet with one of my friends that I would be able to start a rogue on SZ and get him up to 20th in 6 months.

While this doesn't seem impossible to most, I would have to mention that I have never played a non-caster past 10th and haven't managed to play any character past 5th on a PvP server... So I managed to get decent odds on the bet... 3 to 1.

My friend whom I am playing with on SZ sent me an email with this thread saying, "Hey! Maybe I'll play a rogue on when it comes up, too." My reply was "Yes. You and about 1000 other people who just read this...." I'm doomed.

[EZ_Auff Kee]

I wonder if they'll make Backstab trip the hide timer because of this.

-Auff

[EZ_Immolatus DrakElrin]

regardless, its overpowering.
i just dont see how you can say otherwise.

[freonsmurf]

I just explained to you how it is not overpowering.

Explain to me how it is overpowering?

casting splurt wich cant be removed my cancel magic/annul is also overpowering, but do you whine or react?

Get it in your head SZ isnt your regular server.

The only problem I see is how spells "resolve" once the person has been targerted, starts to cast a spell then the person hides.

Again, do you have experince in pvp?

Do ya realize the majority of the fights will not be a nice one on on battle with everyone full health. If I evade from one caster, he has two friends standing right there to cast spells on me wich I cant evade in time. I have a pet on me prevetning me from hiding. I have a warrior beating on my head and Im also snared.

Get a clue man, log into Sullon Zek before you make your desision sitting in greater faydark on some old world server, making descisions on something that is completely foreign to you.

edit: you can not /target soandso if they are hidden/invis on a pvp server or a non pvp server.

Edited by: FreonSmurf at: 6/25/01 1:24:59 pm

[Kambic]

Guys listen to Wix and just shut up, you obviously have no rogue-pvp experience at all. If you do, then pull your head out of your arse and look around and see what the world is really like, cause you have been missing a LOT.

Now, for some real info, a guildie of mine had an attempted pick pocket on him and it gave him a message saying "Soandso is trying to pick pocket you" as well as it did a little emote thing that made him shout "Stop thief !" like NPC's do.

[freonsmurf]

Lol,stop thief!

haha that is awesome

Lets just have faith in kendrick, he will do things right no reason to fret about balance or xsploits or that kinda stuff.

[EZ_Cylant]

I can pumice splurt.. why can't you?

[freonsmurf]

Using myrlokar gloves in the arena friday during necro btotb I could not remove the effect.

[EZ_Dove Whispersilk]

This isnt overpowered for rogues as we can only hide every 10 seconds anyways, and we have to be PERFECTLY still to do so (means stopping and waiting a second for server to catch up with us, then hitting hide - and if we're being hit it wont work either).

However, if you read what Kendrick said Quote: Hiding and Invis will take you off targetting with the next patch on Sullon

The fact that invis will take you off of target as well means that anyone with an instant click invisibility item (such as circlet of shadows) can just run around spamming invisibility and no one will be able to hurt them because they are constatnly droped off target. Even if you have see invis you still lose target according to kendrick. This ability really needs to be chanced to hide only - making invis drop you off target as well is very abusable by items.

Dove the Silent - Assassin of Clan Ta`Veren on Terris-Thule

[EZ_Kehvrynne]

Just another thing to make me consider starting over on SZ...

Now, anything to say on the Fan Faire buzz that Toxicology will be getting another overhaul soon?

/e is drooling at the idea of "stackable" toxins Kehvrynne Quickblade
Professional Damsel of Distress
Amnesty, Saryrn

[freonsmurf]

Need an explantion of exactly what happens if:

You target a player.
Begin to cast a spell.
The player hides/invis.
Does the spell fizzle, innterupt, contiune casting?

Dove is right on with the instant click items being exploitable.

However making this hide only fixes that problem.

[EZ_ThePoisoned]

Kendrick said that the spell will still resolve, so if they have you targetted and start casting, no amount of hiding is going to save you. "People, some good, some bad, but in the long run we come out even." - Jan Hittle
"I like to tell people I have the heart of a small boy. Then I say it's in a jar on my desk. "- Stephen King

Aconite Darkeyes
Blade of Bertoxx. Sullon Zek Ring Warden.

[Lisboa]

I think the point is it means all classes without see invis cannot win against a rogue who has instant hide vs. 5 second invis of a caster.
Warrior, rogue, monk, cleric, paladin, ranger (until level 39), SK (until level 22), bard (until level 19). Some of these can cast. Those who can't cast (the melees) appear to have no way of interrupting or breaking hide. Even if you are a class that can cast during this time, a decent rogue can just wait for the moment its target is not casting. No one can cast nonstop.
Now if there were a one or two second timer for detargeting to work, then a warrior or monk would not be helpless against a rogue. If they were near the end of a swing they would have a <60% chance of interrupting. The way it's phrased now, it will be impossible warrior or monk to beat a mediocre rogue under these conditions. A mediocre rogue will learn to stay hidden for 10 seconds before coming out with a backstab so that hide automatically refreshes.
It's not the case that those who can't see invis get this buff. In 21 levels of play with an SK on Vallon, I have received see invis twice. By the time you realize you need it, it will be too late.
Is it unbalancing? Not against any caster class. Caster classes won't be affected at all except they have to reorder their pet to attack and hit F8--a sneaking rogue can't move out of sight fast enough. Against any class that cannot see invis, maybe it is. Casting hybrids will probably still be better in P v P (they can still root, shadowstep or snare), but a warrior or monk cannot defeat a rogue unless they can put their back to the wall, and will have to zone /q otherwise.
If it's going to be that way, I guess it's an improvement nonetheless, but it seems a bit messed up for this benefit to come at the expense of other melee classes, which were already underpowered in P v P. When a rogue attempts to fight another rogue on Sullon, what I'm saying should become obvious. Edited by: Lisboa at: 6/26/01 3:10:25 am

[EZ_Diirk Shade]

ok, say a warrior does get caught unawares by a rogue... do you think he's going to just sit still for a minute for us to kill him?

But wait, if he moves, we can chase him!!! At a whopping 2 miles per hour that is... low level sneak speed is irritating ;o)

thats why its not overpowering... the other person has plenty of opportunity to get away, np.

[freonsmurf]

omg for sooo long this has always been a request of pvp rogues.

Let hide remove rogue form target.

Lo and behold the day final comes!

Rejoice! Rejoice!

[EZ_Ugli Itchybottom]

Actually if you hide while a spell is being cast, the spell will resolve, BUT you are still removed from target. So they have to target you again before you hide again.

Not a big problem really, at least against a single opponent. Monks have always had to deal with it on FD.

[EZ_coyoteblack]

How much if this will be on Rallos? Or is going to be just Sullon? " No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife between the shoulder blades will seriously cramp his style" -- Vlad Taltos

[EZ_Kinthaf]

Of course this still doesn't address the biggest melee pvp issue which is melee attack range. Some casters butt can be filling my whole screen but they are too far away to hit... bah. When I get really fed up with it I just /q LD level 59 rogues are no fun to mess with.

Kinthaf, RZ

[EZ_Bedrenken Pigsticker]

I think you can use /target while hidden/invis if you have see invis.. same thing if you try and track a hidden char (need see invis to track em) Bedrenken Pigsticker
56th level half-man bastard
Forces Unknown, Povar.

[Lisboa]

This will be a bonus to halflings, dark elves and wood elves who aren't rogues, because they have a natural hide ability. If a fight's going bad, these races can just hide and stand perfectly still till the melee can get someone to help him. Sort of doesn't make much sense that someone can hide right in front of you where you were about to swing and now can't get hit.

As for rangers, all they need is a see invis spell at level 22.

[EZ_Vermintide]

Actually, Evade does NOT make you hide.

It only looks like you do from your own external perspective.

It's easy to check, get on the agro of a mob in a group and have someone else get the mob on them after your sure your on the hate list.

Then, sneak, followed by hide. You will get the evade message.

Now, go walk over to a mob you have not agroed while the fight is still going on an con it, you will notice, wether you succeeded to evade or failed, that the mob will still scowl at you, ready to attack.

This is because, despite the messages you get, when you are evading you do NOT hide.

Anyway, if dropping from the hate list is an effect of all types of hide and all invis spells I can defiantly see where this would become unbalancing.

Items like the Circlet of Shadows and the rogue Sky mask would make one invincible.

This target dropping ability SHOULD be an effect of Evade, not hide and invis in general.

Also, I'd just like to mention that I think wether or not you succeed on an evade should be determined by your Hide skill, not just a flat 2 thirds of the time. And a rogue with 200 hide skill should never fail an Evade, unless he's moving or something.

[EZ_Stabendail]

humph!!!

What about all the other PvP servers? I thought from the start that evading in battle should get rid of target. It is so annoying when you are fighting a necro, sk or wizzie who shadow steps away from you, and can still cast a spell on you. than the only chance you have of surviving is to zone. Stabendail Darkstrike47th lvl Dwarf RogueTallon Zek *Dominus Aeternus* Stabendail Darkstrike

[EZ_MajestykVZ]

Races with natural hide, never get skill increases, unless hide is in their class skills.

I'm in full favor of Evade/hide removing the player from the target list.

I am dissapointed that VI included Invisibility spells/items in this as well.

[EZ_JamesVZ]

I don't even have the time to list all the ways that this is overpowering, and how much it would unbalance PvP in EQ as we know it, for a class that already DOESN'T need *any* tweaking* done to it.

You can preach day in and day out about how its not unbalancing, and how its a "nice change", and how you're right and I'm wrong, but when it comes down to it *I* have the 1 and a half+ years of PvP experience and *YOU* do not. You can talk about how "theoretically" something should happen, and "theoretically" how a rogue could get killed using this. I can tell you that already with sneak and hide in the high end game rogues have @#%$ me up, thank @#%$ I can still use my bow to find them...when I'm lucky enough to have it equipped in a pvp.

@#%$ @#%$, you might as well start arguing to me about how Malo isn't overpowered in PvP, "but i t hsa a cats tyme a nd yuo cna intrupt it". Don't even get me started on THAT issue. So I invite every non-red rogue on this thread to kindly go somewhere else because your opinions and views on the issue hold about nil weight with me, and rightly so.

[EZ_Dove Whispersilk]

level 1-50 rogues really do need this though.
just because rogues are powerful at level 60 doesnt mean we should ignore the fact that they SUCK pre-50.

The only unblancing issues with this that I can see are instant click invis items. As far as rogue hiding to activate this, there is no problem there, its great.

[freonsmurf]

James, Ive been playin on PvP since 99 bro, dont be so quick to dis. Ive been a shank since way back, the days when people like bluud was active here.

Now, stop babbling and list some facts and examples of how it is over powering. I have listed my points very cleary, and all anyone has done was say "thats not balanaced! your a n00b!".

Grow up and learn how to communicate.

[EZ_JamesVZ]

All it takes is *hide* and you are off the target list. It will totally destroy any jousting strategy you ever had, and possibly make it to where you *can't* fight back against necro's and SK's (and we all know those 2 classes need help in the pvp area).

In a one on one situation using the current ruleset, from levels 1 to 60 between a rogue and a warrior is pretty simple. If its a good warrior, he will slap on a 2 hander and get the most out of a round. If its a good rogue, he will sneak/hide when the warrior runs past him and then sneak around his back to get a backstab. Before I got my perma-see invis item (read: level 60), Rogues would seriously screw me up with the sneak hide. Just IMAGINE what they could do to me if they were erased from my target everytime we went by each other. I would get *no* hits in due to not having a target to GET hits in.

If you, as a red rogue, cannot see how overpowering this would be to YOU, then you need to take a step back and quit your rogue. Everyone likes changes that benefit their class, and they will find a plethora of reasons as to why it isn't overpowering, but in actuality the reasons they listed are too stupid to even work.

I'm also curious as to who your Shank character is, maybe we grouped with each other at some point in time?

[EZ_JamesVZ]

"Get a clue and realize by lvl 12, most int casters have invis and see invis already."
-I played a caster 1 through 60, and a warrior 1 through 60, I can count on my hand the number of times I thought See Invis was a necessary buff for pvp.

"Shaman have to wait till lvl 29, and clerics well they never travel alone anyway."
-Who cares about Shamen, and yes...clerics travel alone *a lot*.

"If ya think ppl walk around on the pvp server with 500 pp and dont have see invis up, ya show your obvious bluebie roots."
-I believe in carrying around in excess of 250+pp now that item loot is out, and I got my first see invis item at level 60.

"And yes if by chance some rog and war happen to be all alone and meet for a one on one battle(rarely if ever happens, with 2 mins a backup force will come running)"
-? Do you actually play on a pvp server on a day to day basis? Where have you been?

"A war wll be at a disadvantage, but who gives a damn?"
-Me, the warrior, but I have faced disadvantages before and spit in its face. This is complete and total power over another class. Imagine an instant casting, unresistable snare. Sorta like that in terms of "disadvantage".

"If I face a mage with a earth pet, im at a major disadvantage, thats life."
-Rofl, I have *never* in my EQ career, been rooted by a mage earth pet.

"Certain classes will have advantage over others and you need to react and make a desicion."
-See above.

"Thats life on a pvp server, it isnt some @#%$ you can whine about and get it patched."
-GG

"Like was said before, this aint lvl 50 RB land, this is lvl 12 giant snake fang lande, please try to remeber how that was is you havent experinced it in awhile."
-When I was using a giant snake fang, I was level 34.

"The second a rogue enters the zone with a rep for stealing, belive me the shouts will go up
"Hey that mofo thief soandso is here"
Ppl will make sure they atleast one of thier group members will have see invis."
-Riiiiight.

[Nimmbull]

James Said:

"Just IMAGINE what they could do to me if they were erased from my target everytime we went by each other."

Just to clarify for you, a rogue can only evade (hide) successfully when they are completely still. So there would be no running past you and hitting hide. That wouldn't work...

For this reason I don't think it is unbalancing against another melee. Against a caster, perhaps slightly. But hey, more power to us...

Nimm Nimmbull
Retired 47th Level Hoodlum, Bristlebane
Sanguine Blade

[EZ_JamesVZ]

Nimm, how much experience do you have playing on a red server? Trust me when I say its *more* than easy to take half a second to stop and hit a button.

[Nimmbull]

Heh. I don't have much experience in PvP, but I know my way around Hide. I know how long it takes to stop and Hide...

How would a rogue hitting hide every time he swings (and appears) beat a warrior? Any smart warrior, when they see the rogue has hidden, would just leave the area. It is incredibly hard to get a BS in on someone while sneaking. If the warrior is simply standing there, yes the rogue could beat him using this tactic: BS, rehide, sneak around, BS, rehide, etc. But anyone who is even remotely moving around would take literally hours for this method to work. Or here's an idea: keep auto-attack on so that every time the rogue takes a stab at ya he is automatically targeted and smacked around a bit?

Anyways, what I'm saying is that a rogue using this tactic ain't unbalanced, he's just boring.

Nimm

Edit: One thing that would be interesting is something I have never tried/experienced: Do PC's affect a rogue similarly as MOBs? In other words, does a rogue get knocked back when getting wailed on by another PC? Cause if this is true, hiding would be even more difficult... Edited by: Nimmbull at: 6/26/01 8:51:54 pm

[EZ_Ogor]

I just amazed that I've read on two different major eq news sites that kendrick annouced it. Bah.

Odds Bodkins

[EZ_Rebu]

I'll repost my original conern.. and I do agree with Dove on the insta cast invis... but hide resetting every 10 secs really is not that big of a handicap considering that unless you are fighting someone with a pet or that has see invis you will be invisible and untargetable for 99% of the fight.

You can Hide/Sneak behind someone, Backstab, rehide instantly and repeat. Primarily I am more concerned about how overpowering this tactic will be at 55+ levels as the Rogue is BSing double 300s+ easy, sneaking faster, and with Jboots or SoW their is VERY little risk.

Also with Invis doing this, this opens up SKs and Necros (Circlet of Shadows), any plate class (Incardine BP), and Rogues (PoA Mask) to have an incrediably powerful method of basically reeming people by being able to untarget yourself at will. NONE of these items are overpowering in PoE, but with the proposed PvP change extremely powerful (class defining items as far as PvP is concerned).

My bet is Verant will just nerf these items instead of actually fixing the fact that the ability to untarget yourself from others is extremely powerful.

I DO actually think you should be able to untarget yourself, but it should be on some sort of timer. Pure melee classes specifically really could use something like this. The current proposal just sounds way to easy to abuse and further favors melee classes with decent resists over casters at high levels.

Side thought hehe: About Sullon Zek in general... I'd hate to be on opposing sides fighting to get that first mage epic . Mage Epic + Pet SoW is going to be brutal PvP on a fresh server. Rebu
55 Defiler
I AM the starting point of EVERY single argument created!

[EZ_JamesVZ]

By the time the mage epic is completed on SZ, it won't be a fresh server anymore .

[EZ_Kendrick]

Lol, Ogor, I just verified/clarified your information, I wasn't trying to get 'credit' for anything.

BTW, did you play GS on GEnie? That name (Odds) brings back memories. Edited by: Kendrick at: 6/27/01 12:50:35 am

[EZ_JamesVZ]

"How would a rogue hitting hide every time he swings (and appears) beat a warrior? Any smart warrior, when they see the rogue has hidden, would just leave the area. It is incredibly hard to get a BS in on someone while sneaking. If the warrior is simply standing there, yes the rogue could beat him using this tactic: BS, rehide, sneak around, BS, rehide, etc. But anyone who is even remotely moving around would take literally hours for this method to work."

...and thats *exactly* my point. People PvP as little as possible as-is, and when you DO manage to get around to PvPing now-adays (read: coin-loot only), they generally last 30+ minutes (as an average, melee vs. melee...I could see taking 10-15 min). Everybody on the server already knows which dungeons you are and are not supposed to enter, and those dungeons are blue straight down to the core. The only PvP you get is the offchance that someone may try to enter that dungeon late at night. Yes, it may come as a big surprise, but we, "teh l33t peekayers" do not PvP unless we go out and seek it, and about 2% of the population does that, and 99.9% of that 2% is below level 30 (speaking as a day to day basis, I often find myself on a raid group to Karnor's Castle every once in a blue moon).

Something like this would just totally kill any pvp contact I had with a rogue, what little of it I *do* have. What I wish for is for them to stop screwing around with PvP balancing, it was pretty damn balanced until they screwed around with Harmtouch, and then later resist debuffs (not so much anything else as much as Malo is, you will fear the unresistable -70 to all resists).

[EZ_Coraan]

JamesVZ, I have played on tallon Zek since it started, and some of your statements are way off base, imho.

JamesVZ - "In a one on one situation using the current ruleset, from levels 1 to 60 between a rogue and a warrior is pretty simple. If its a good warrior, he will slap on a 2 hander and get the most out of a round. If its a good rogue, he will sneak/hide when the warrior runs past him and then sneak around his back to get a backstab. Before I got my perma-see invis item (read: level 60), Rogues would seriously screw me up with the sneak hide. Just IMAGINE what they could do to me if they were erased from my target everytime we went by each other. I would get *no* hits in due to not having a target to GET hits in."

What red server are you talking about? A warrior vs a rogue, just them two fighting it out for an entire fight? sounds like a duel to me. That does not happen on a red server. Why? Both of those classes are group dependent, so you will rarely find and engage them alone. Oh, but sure, they are, say, traveling through DL, planning on meeting their friends at the rings. and you (a warrior) find them and engage them.. (because warriors go solo PK raiding sooo often.)

But let us entertain your situation. Ok, so the warrior and rogue are fighting, and the warior is getting beat... hmm what happens? Maybe the warrior runs off when the rogue hides/sneaks... and yells to the zone that he needs help (if he is in a zone his team controlls ).. or maybe his guildmates arrive, seeing how the moment the fight started, he alerted to them he was getting Pked and where.

A rogue who is sneaking cannot catch a warrior who is running away. Hell atleast in this match-up you can get away.. a warrior against some other, one on one, you might as well start planning your corpse run.

Of course, another thing the warrior can do is retarget on the rogue, that is if the warrior has see invis. Of course you are saying a warrior cannot get a see invis item until level 60...
What? Ever heard of the Bracer of the hidden? Or the necklace that comes out of droga/mines of Nurga area? My ranger had a bracer at 35. seventy-percent of the warrios I know have one. and if you are not uber enough to kill sarnacks in LOIO, I see them auctioned all the time.

Later on you made another reference to see invis, in your response to other posters...

poster - "Get a clue and realize by lvl 12, most int casters have invis and see invis already."
James VZ - I played a caster 1 through 60, and a warrior 1 through 60, I can count on my hand the number of times I thought See Invis was a necessary buff for pvp.

poster - "If ya think ppl walk around on the pvp server with 500 pp and dont have see invis up, ya show your obvious bluebie roots."
JamesVZ - "I believe in carrying around in excess of 250+pp now that item loot is out, and I got my first see invis item at level 60."

What? I really doubt you play on a PvP server. See invis is almost always up, unless you are deep into a dungeon, or well within the safe lands of your team. If you are in hostile lands, you will always have it if it is available. It is kinda like checking who is in the zone ALL the time. Hell I use my bracer of the hidden ot see invis the groups because it is faster, and it is a MUST buff.

And I don't carry that much change. why? It is heavy. Of course you are a warrior and can surely carry more. But the only reason why people on the high end carry a lot of coin is because they get a lot of coin from mobs at higher levels, and it adds up faster. Not sure what your point is about this..

Poster - ""And yes if by chance some rog and war happen to be all alone and meet for a one on one battle(rarely if ever happens, with 2 mins a backup force will come running)"
JamesVZ -"? Do you actually play on a pvp server on a day to day basis? Where have you been?"

Unless you are solo PKing in a zone like OOT, yes there will be back-up in about 2 minutes. Unless you keep it to yourself that you are in a fight, and don't tell your group/guild/zone. But of course your adversary just did... and the only reason backup might not come, is that he doesnt need any to drop you solo. On a PvP server, it is rare for someone not to just wander into your fight to begin with.
And I am not even taking into account MOBs.

Poster - "A war wll be at a disadvantage, but who gives a damn?"
JamesVZ "-Me, the warrior, but I have faced disadvantages before and spit in its face. This is complete and total power over another class. Imagine an instant casting, unresistable snare. Sorta like that in terms of "disadvantage".

No it is nothing like that. Your comparison is way off. With an unresistable snare, you cant get away, and you die. With rogues having this power, you can still always turn tale and run. That is , unless, he hs jboots, and you still do not (I have a feeling you havnt gotten even those yet).

poster - ""Like was said before, this aint lvl 50 RB land, this is lvl 12 giant snake fang lande, please try to remeber how that was is you havent experinced it in awhile."
JamesVZ "-When I was using a giant snake fang, I was level 34."

Well, seeing how you carry all your plat when you are out PKing, I can understand why you couldnt afford a better wep.

poster - ""The second a rogue enters the zone with a rep for stealing, belive me the shouts will go up
"Hey that mofo thief soandso is here"
Ppl will make sure they atleast one of thier group members will have see invis."
JamesVZ "-Riiiiight."

If you have spent anytime whatsoever on a pvp server, you know about shouts going up in a zone saying a pk raiding group is there" and hell ya, see invis is passsed out, MR gear is put on, PvP buffs are tossed out, and mobs are not pulled till the situation is assesed.

Sorry to go off on this tangent, but I really didnt like the PvP server world to be so misrepresented.

- Kersed
Coraan Honorbound,Pathfinder of Final Endeavor - Tallon Zek

Kersed,Rogue of Gladius Fatalis - Sullon Zek

[EZ_Vermintide]

Indeed.

JamesVZ's experiences with PvP seem to be contradictory to everyone elses.

[freonsmurf]

One thing, You said you didnt get enough pvp experince on your server.

With Sullon Zek, there are no pk limits, so alot more action will happen.

[EZ_Slyy Daugg]

OMG I wish I had a lvl 7 rogue ready to go after patch!

So many people will have no clue about this change, and I would be right there at the bank waiting for the lvl 1 with gear to step in...

looks like I am going PvP

Slyy Daugg
51 Rogue of Saryrn

[EZ_Joel Canova]

Flux's sig

comes from our home board, TALLON ZEK TIMES muhahah.. anyway...

we don't wanna have to edit our sig every time we post here, since we don't post here that often anyway, so we will try not to use our sig when we post here.

I will only use it this one time for show ;) Gratus Stormbearer, 53 Human Reaver
WebMaster/Assistant Events Cordnater The Militant Order
Ketrick De`Krite,
Backstabbing Bastard of...
Killshots

[EZ_JamesVZ]

"What red server are you talking about? A warrior vs a rogue, just them two fighting it out for an entire fight? sounds like a duel to me. That does not happen on a red server. Why? Both of those classes are group dependent, so you will rarely find and engage them alone. Oh, but sure, they are, say, traveling through DL, planning on meeting their friends at the rings. and you (a warrior) find them and engage them.. (because warriors go solo PK raiding sooo often.)"
-Most of my encounters take place as a solo battle. I very rarely PvP in a group, but often I do find myself PvPing against a small group of maybe 2 or 3. Classes being group dependent has @#%$ to do with it, fungi tunic + 207 bind wound skill and I'm ready to go again in under a minute.

"But let us entertain your situation. Ok, so the warrior and rogue are fighting, and the warior is getting beat... hmm what happens? Maybe the warrior runs off when the rogue hides/sneaks... and yells to the zone that he needs help (if he is in a zone his team controlls ).. or maybe his guildmates arrive, seeing how the moment the fight started, he alerted to them he was getting Pked and where."
-Read my post above~.

"A rogue who is sneaking cannot catch a warrior who is running away. Hell atleast in this match-up you can get away.. a warrior against some other, one on one, you might as well start planning your corpse run."
-Above~.

"Of course, another thing the warrior can do is retarget on the rogue, that is if the warrior has see invis. Of course you are saying a warrior cannot get a see invis item until level 60...
What? Ever heard of the Bracer of the hidden? Or the necklace that comes out of droga/mines of Nurga area? My ranger had a bracer at 35. seventy-percent of the warrios I know have one. and if you are not uber enough to kill sarnacks in LOIO, I see them auctioned all the time."
-I'm not saying that at all. I am saying that *I* got my perma-seeinvis item at level 60. Many people I know at level 60 *still* don't have a perma-seeinvis item. Go ask Nanak why he doesn't have his.

"What? I really doubt you play on a PvP server. See invis is almost always up, unless you are deep into a dungeon, or well within the safe lands of your team. If you are in hostile lands, you will always have it if it is available. It is kinda like checking who is in the zone ALL the time. Hell I use my bracer of the hidden ot see invis the groups because it is faster, and it is a MUST buff."
-See invis is almost never up because, like I said before, I PvP solo most of my time. No one else really likes going to PvP, they are all too busy sucking the exp nipple.

"And I don't carry that much change. why? It is heavy. Of course you are a warrior and can surely carry more. But the only reason why people on the high end carry a lot of coin is because they get a lot of coin from mobs at higher levels, and it adds up faster. Not sure what your point is about this.."
-My point is nothing, just stating my distaste for coin-loot only. No risk involved, so I add some risk.

"Unless you are solo PKing in a zone like OOT, yes there will be back-up in about 2 minutes. Unless you keep it to yourself that you are in a fight, and don't tell your group/guild/zone. But of course your adversary just did... and the only reason backup might not come, is that he doesnt need any to drop you solo. On a PvP server, it is rare for someone not to just wander into your fight to begin with."
-Yes it is, I know that on Vallon Zek any place outside a dungeon is practically barren for the most part (save Sro and oasis, 2 very good prime PvP spots). I can sit just outside of the stone at KC and fight someone there 1 on 1. 90% of the time their backup won't arrive unless a) he is needed for a group inside, or b) I am interferring with their plans some other way.

"And I am not even taking into account MOBs."
-I don't know about you, but every battle I have been in with another "honorable" PvPer, we both stop to kill the mob.

"No it is nothing like that. Your comparison is way off. With an unresistable snare, you cant get away, and you die. With rogues having this power, you can still always turn tale and run. That is , unless, he hs jboots, and you still do not (I have a feeling you havnt gotten even those yet)."
-It wasn't a comparison between the two at all, it was a comparison in disadvantage. Adding that snare would make a druid almost unkillable, same with a rogue, shadowknight, or a necromancer.

"Well, seeing how you carry all your plat when you are out PKing, I can understand why you couldnt afford a better wep."
-250pp does not equate to "all my plat", especially since I generally gain more money from PvP then I lose.

"If you have spent anytime whatsoever on a pvp server, you know about shouts going up in a zone saying a pk raiding group is there" and hell ya, see invis is passsed out, MR gear is put on, PvP buffs are tossed out, and mobs are not pulled till the situation is assesed."
-I've never seen this done, not once. Its actually pretty funny too, just about every time I go to KC I get a good chuckle out of it. My group (I don't take KC solo like Splorge ) would come in and kill the entrance groups NP. What do we do next? Go around the corner and kill the group pulling mobs WHILE the people at front were dieing. Now you think that would be bad enough, but noooo, the group from across the way (on the other corner) are *STILL* pulling mobs. Now, myself...yes I do prepare for PvP when I see the /who list. I learned my lesson long ago by not doing so.

"Sorry to go off on this tangent, but I really didnt like the PvP server world to be so misrepresented."
-Its not misrepresented. PvP is @#%$.

[EZ_MajestykVZ]

JamesVZ, I pretty much gave up on reasoning the issue with you after the '"I" have 1 and a half years in PvP blah blalh blah yadda yadda yadda'.

Let me just say *edit> and don't take this as a personal attack, it's just an observation,

[EZ_JamesVZ]

Then obviously you know jackshit about me, Majestyk. Not only is the rogue my *favorite* class to play, but I play it pretty damn good, and lets not even go on about the whining thing because if there's one thing I have never done on a pvp server is WHINED.

For not liking me, oh boo hoo...that made my cry . Let me go wallow in self-pity while I worry about someone who doesn't like me.

I would also like to mention that only during my time in Combine did these "distorted facts" become so crystal clear to me. Kill someone exping, get bitched at for hours, bind rushed, and trained. Hell me and Lenwan would often try to take over Splitpaw only to be driven off by a team of darks and lights getting experience.

You are clueless Majestyk.

[EZ_Ugli Itchybottom]

The PvP pickpocket needs more risk added.

Right now there are 3 problems with it, IMO:

1. The range of the 'shout' for guards when someone fails a pp attempt on you is very small. Probably smaller than /say.

2. The guards never assist. Even if you are standing right next to them when someone tries to pp you. So if you are getting pp while banking, you can't fight back or the guards will kill you.

3. The 'shout' should have the name of the pp'er in it I think.

[EZ_MajestykVZ]

Hey, I'm gonna have to try PPing in the banks now. I was always afraid the guards would smack me down.

btw, James. Twinking an alt to the point of invulnerability at your level range and the PKing lowbies ain't anything to brag about.

[EZ_Mojo Rat]

I really dont have a stance on the PP issue, but i thought i would say something on the Hide issue.

Personally i would rather this change be purely linked to evade, and that
Invis shouldnt break target, it should merely just stop you fromc asting
or shooting arrows. (ie if a rogue backstabs a warrior then quickly hits the hide button failing evade as the warrior hits the auto combat he should get shredded)

My experience on Ralos as Rogue is geting Zapped ata distance around cornersby people who cant see me, or the Warrior with the arrows that can still hit me despite the fact that he cant see me.

I really dont see how this ability if done properly can be overpowerd, but that "doneproperly" is a tricky situation.

[EZ_Vermintide]

Much as I think JamesVZ is simply wrong I believe MajestykVZ's comments consitute a personal attack on JamezVZ.

[EZ_MajestykVZ]

Ya really think so? And they said I was getting so much better in group. I can see how you might get the wrong impression. I'll fix it.

[EZ_TaoxekTrickyhands]

Attacking rogue
Rogue hides
Other player presses tab twice
Other player continues to attack rogue
Wouldn't this work? Taoxek Trickyhands51 Elementalist Solusek Ro

[EZ_zaknefein]

You do too hide when you evade, but most people attack so fast after using the hide to evade that your character seems to blink instead of hide.

The reason mobs still scowl at you after you evade is cause you were attacking it. You cant attack something and then evade/hide and be wipped off the argo list.

Try attacking, then /attack off - /hide and it will hide you and make the evade work as well, unless you get hit or move after hitting the /hide.
Zaknefein Do'Urdan
"Dark Elf Weapons Master"
Lvl 55 Mrymidon - Bristlebane Jarlaxile
"Rogue in a Wide Brimmed Hat"
Lvl 54 Rake - Bristlebane

[EZ_Prenn]

You know, even when you *FAIL* hide, you look hidden to yourself.

I doubt evade hides you in actuality. Pren, Human Disciple on The Tribunal server

[Glip the Gnome]

Actually it does Prenn, back before the hate list change in Hate raids I'd take off the last part of my hotkey that made me attack again, so I'd keep myself hidden. This saved my arse countless times on wipeout situtations.

[Kambic]

"You can preach day in and day out about how its not unbalancing, and how its a "nice change", and how you're right and I'm wrong, but when it comes down to it *I* have the 1 and a half+ years of PvP experience and *YOU* do not. You can talk about how "theoretically" something should happen, and "theoretically" how a rogue could get killed using this. I can tell you that already with sneak and hide in the high end game rogues have @#%$ me up, thank @#%$ I can still use my bow to find them...when I'm lucky enough to have it equipped in a pvp."

Hey bud, you get the award for most assanine comment of the year. Because when it comes down to it, *I* have the TWO years of PvP experience and *YOU* do not. It's not my fault you can't afford a BoH or even better a Choker of Mahjjd (sp?). Any caster pre-50 owns a rogue under common and most uncommon circumstances. Whine whine about 50+ I don't care, you spend five times as many levels 1 - 50 as you do 51 - 60, so it means nothing to me.

There is nothing unbalanced about letting rogue's PP people in PvP combat, and I'm not even going to touch on the Hide part.

You remind me of the Good bard in qhills the other day debating how evil team has it the hardest because they can't buy and sell from most vendors.

Puhlease put down that crack pipe.

Wang, Anonymous Gnome of Sullon Zek, Anarchia
Canbik Virulentus, 40th Halfling Rogue of Rallos Zek, Order of the Black Rose (Retired)
Joyous Mackdaddy, 23rd Human Enchanter of Sullon Zek [Test], Anarchy (Player Wiped)

"Just gimme my gun."
"Sorry, the law requires a five day waiting period... we've got to run a background check."
"Aww, but I'm mad now." - Homer Simpson, buying a gun

[EZ_MajestykVZ]

Much as I think JamesVZ is simply wrong I believe Kambic's comments consitute a personal attack on JamezVZ.

*snickers and slips off into the shadows*