LDon Chain: Black Mire vs Incorpreal

[EZ_Delghinn00]

760 AP:
Chainmail of Black Mire: CHEST, AC55 Sta10 Cha9 Wis8 Hp75 Mana75 SvCold9 SvMagic9 SvPoison9, WT2.5, RNG/ROG/SHM, type1, type2, type3

1492 AP:
Incorporeal Chain of the Specter: AC: 61 Str: +13, Dex: +11, Wis: +10, HP +100, Mana +100 Sv Fire: +12, Sv Cold: +12, Sv Poison: +12 Rec. level: 65 type1, type2, type 3 RNG ROG SHM

Now that the Incorporeal has been nerfed down to type1, type2, type3.. Is it really worth 732 more points over the Black Mire BP?

Unless you are at max STA with buffs is norm, the Black Mire will yeild MORE hps, has magic save instead of fire, STR is norm maxed out for most with few buffs, it's not much of a benefit. Just seems the Incorporeal is not much of an upgrade at all.. I guess SOE will nerf the Black Mire down to be comparable to Barbed Chain next.

[EZ_Ishwar2]

You are correct that for a rogue wit non-maxed sta, black mire is the preffered choise, maybe for ranges with non-maxed sta,, im not a ranger expert. For everyone else Incorporal is better. If its worth the extra points, everyone will have to decide on their own. Ishwar - level 65 Barbarian Rogue - GM smith

[EZ_Aliskat]

It's really quite trivial to max out stamina at later levels. Pure HP on the other hand don't have a cap. Once you slap a 40 HP, a 20 HP and a Veng 3 (or Veng 4 if those are out there) into your Incorporeal Chain Mail, this becomes the second highest HP BP a rogue can obtain (second only to the Coirnav BP which of course has better all around stats).

Right now I'm saving up EF points for an Incorporeal Chain Mail, which I will then augment as stated above. To me this item might very well be the best BP I'll ever get my hands on. That's how I look at upgrades these days, upgrade the stuff that will last the longest, rather than smaller, more frequent upgrades =)

Cheers,

Aliskat Smellikat

[EZ_Shadowtiger]

I'm working on MDoD first, so I am not as close to buying a BP as some folks are...but...

I would suggest looking at the TOTAL cost of the BP that you are building: if you take into consideration the 2000+ points that you will probably spend on augments to whichever BP you buy, the cost difference isn't as large as it is between 1492 and 760. The extra 14 adventures that it would take to purchase the Incorp SOUNDS like a lot, but its pretty insignificant when you are talking about 50 aventures for the "cheap" BP and 64 adventures for the more expensive one.

I think a lot of people will learn to be [atient and make BIG purchases, asn noted above, that will last them a LONG time: it would suck to spend 75+ hours working towards a LDON BP just to have it become obsolete bank fodder in a few months. Vergil
Lightbearer of Mithaniel Marr

Lynal
Nightstalker

Bristlebane Server

All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost.
The old that is strong does not whither,
Deep roots are not reached by the frost.
-- JRR Tolkien

[EZ_Northerner]

It is trivial to max stamina at later levels? I can't say I agree, I've been 65 an awfully long time and my stamina does not cap.

Of course I am starting at a base of 70 and not in the elemental planes but I would take 10 Stamina over 10 Strength anytime. Still, I am eyeing the Spectral based on long term use myself. Celeris Tujimson
Maurading Deceiver of The Nameless

That all men are equal is a proposition to which, at ordinary times, no sane individual has ever given his assent.
Aldous Huxley (1894 - 1963)

[EZ_Aliskat]

Celeris,

You have a good point which I haven't thought much of. Being a Vah'Shir my unbuffed Stamina is 95, so some of the difference lies there. Here's my magelo for an idea of my gear, nothing spectacular by any means.

Aliskat's Magelo
Cheers,

Aliskat Smellikat Edited by: Aliskat at: 10/23/03 2:18 pm

[EZ_Ishwar2]

Well stamania might be 'trivail' to max, bo once you start thinking that way, and replace a good part of your stamina gear with pure hp only, it will drop fast. Try removing all the sta from the 8 visible pieces that incoperal will cover, and see if you are still close to maxing.

So if you already have uber gear and just looking to upgrader a few spots with fully upgraded ldon armor, incorperal all the way. On the other hand people lime me, with ssraa quality gear, who is only looking at replacing my tae ew tunic, with the unupgraded version only I think ill just take the black mire at half the price.

But all in all I think they are nicely balanced. Ishwar - level 65 Barbarian Rogue - GM smith

[EZ_catseyes coeurdenuit]

Raw HP > all

think smart,think far . Aone day or another u'll raid if it's not the case still. And if u are raiding atm, u'll get soon or later max sta with buffs . So ,u'll need only Raw HPs.

If u get your incorporeal,u'll keep it a long time,may be until time or a lucky kill /loot on coirnav. The black mire is matched by many other cheapest BPs.

btw ToV is hp 90 sta 12 ...

Deceiver 65 Aurore-MT.

[EZ_Qutsemnie]

your not getting to 305 sta unbuffed without *every* piece of uber gear prior to elemental planes or just elemental gear. So you definatly got to make judgement calls. I mean if your afraid of how uber you might be one day then the 16/19 piercer is a bad purchase for rogues cause one day they might be in time. But thats not a practical way to make decisions for every rogue because there are encounters to win *now* and elemental planes might be very far away for them. Thinking "long term" has to be tempered with benefits "now". They actually have a system for that in my system analysis class its called present value anaysis. Digressing however. suffice it to say most rogues would be foolish to avoid the 16/19 cause one day they might have an ifir.


yar. further even in the softcap area its still 2 hp per sta. so thats 95 hp for the weak bp even in the worst case for most people who dont cap unless shamans give them specially treatment. Theres actually two buffs besides boar that will get you to the cap but you have to give up fos to do it. Thats treatment most rogues will never get cause 120 hp or so for *rogues* doesnt merit special treatment.

but keep in mind nobody has all the augs they want specially now that they introduced type 7 augs so essentially the only fair comparison is
95 hp + vengence 3
versus
100 hp

Is there any contest?

those are basically very close in price. No matter how you slice the counter argument about spending your always behind 700 pts that you can always find value with. The only time that might not be true is if you are capable of buying everything you want. Most of us arnt capable of buying everything we want anytime in the next year.

Edited by: Qutsemnie at: 10/24/03 2:18 am

[EZ_catseyes coeurdenuit]

first , i havent talk of piercers, that's a way different thing to discuss. High piercers are very hard and very rare , and btw it's pure DPS . For a rogue, each improvement in primary is important coz it's all our DPS.

But,we are talking of 2 BP with sta and HP, that's not the same thing. U have a lot of other BP ,with better stats , and before Time,thanks god. I'm on elemantals planes and i am wearing still my Skyshrine BP . u can also get a Stanos BP easily , with a mini pick up raid on the BoT tower boss.

Before Time (we are talking about BP yes?) u have also Ssra for improvement in HP and sta.

u are talking about a short duration in time , that was why i said think far . Rather than spending pts in something u can have "easily" in drop loot , spend it in 40 hp augments ,that is always matchless. I know high end chain user with incorporeal and 40 hp augment,so i can say it's worthing the little more missions u need to get it . <a href="http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=25198"> Maraudeur Catseyes</a> CoeurdeNuitEdited by: catseyes coeurdenuit at: 10/24/03 2:52 am

[EZ_Cily]

Qutsemnie's point is that many of us are in no danger of maxing our stamina.

It might be hard to believe that if you come from the perspective of having 350+ stamina unbuffed, but many of us are not even close to this.

For example, my rogue has 176 unbuffed stamina. It has not gone up much at all in a LONG time. It will not go up much for a LONG time.

Even with boar I am only at 236. 69 stamina short of max while buffed.

I can assure you... I wont be getting that much stamina anytime soon. It is VERY safe for me to make judgement calls on a piece of armor using stamina as an advantage.

Cily

[EZ_labiara]

Quote:It's really quite trivial to max out stamina at later levels.

The goal is to *not* cap stamina unbuffed. In an ideal situation, you would exactly hit your STA cap with raid buffs. One needs to juggle STA gear and HP gear with this in mind. Labiara Stankfoot - Forest Stalker of Gorilla Warfare - Huntress of Fennin RoVenerable Beth Goldenflame - Fiesty Archon

[EZ_Shadowtiger]

I thought this quote summed up the thinking in a very concise manner:
Quote:
essentially the only fair comparison is
95 hp + vengence 3
versus
100 hp


Of course it made me realize that Stano's BP could easily be augmented with a type 7 Vengeance 3 or 4 Aug, whcih would be the best of both worlds.


Stanos' Wicked Breastplate
LORE ITEM MAGIC ITEM NO DROP
Weight: 10.0 Size: LARGE
Slot: CHEST
AC: +50 Str: +8 Dex: +14 Sta: +8 Agi: +10 Fire Resist: +15 Disease Resist: +10 Poison Resist: +15 HP: +100
Classes: Rogue
Races: All Races
Slot 1: Type 7
______________
Mir 1150 Aug7 Icy Diamond of Assault
Lore, Effect:VengeanceIII
______________
Mmc 1450 Aug7 Onyx Orb of Agression
Lore, Effect:VengeanceIV All All Vergil
Lightbearer of Mithaniel Marr

Lynal
Nightstalker

Bristlebane Server

All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost.
The old that is strong does not whither,
Deep roots are not reached by the frost.
-- JRR Tolkien

[EZ_Neas Attrebr]

Actually... a slightly different take... When I saw the 2 side by side my thought was that the difference in stats could actually be made up with str and dex augs that drop in missions and can be put on old world stuff, and the difference in adventure points is at least one vengence aug...

Neas

[EZ_Northerner]

Keep in mind that there is a Vengance III CHEST only type 3 augment so you might want to skip that Ornate BP if you plan on maximizing LDoN vengance through mix-and-match. Edited by: Northerner at: 10/24/03 1:04 pm

[EZ_Shadowtiger]

With a potential total of 32 points of Vengeance available with just the type 3 and 7 augments, I don't think you really need to worry about making sure you use the type 3 chest-only vegeance III item - although it is relatively cheap for Vegeance!

If you raid BOT towers regularly the Stanos BP is a great bargain: you can pick it up as raid loot and spend the 1450 LDoN points on making Vengeance IV for it instead of spenidng 1450+ points on the Incorp BP alone. Vergil
Lightbearer of Mithaniel Marr

Lynal
Nightstalker

Bristlebane Server

All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost.
The old that is strong does not whither,
Deep roots are not reached by the frost.
-- JRR Tolkien

[EZ_Qutsemnie]

theres only 1 vengence 4 type 7, 1 vengence 3 type 7, one vengence 2 type 7. And none of em give you as much attack per an adventure point as that type 3 aug for bp.

if you put vengence 4 on your stanos bp its relatively weak move because of the bp options in LDON and because of the relatively strong BPs in ssra and personally i prefer fungi to em all =). I put vengence 4 on my archlich neck for example much stronger imo cause i dont give up that vengence 4 to use fungi.

no matter how you slice it that 750 bp + vengence 3 bp aug is your strongest move.

[EZ_araxas xev]

Quote:your not getting to 305 sta unbuffed without *every* piece of uber gear prior to elemental planes or just elemental gear

This is not true.

I have 305 unbuffed STA atm and have had it since about 2 weeks after my guild entered VT when I had only 1 or 2 items from that zone. We aren't in Sol Ro tower yet, let alone EP's and I have no AA points put into stamina.

Considering you can get +30 STA from aa points, +10 augments are cheap from ldon merchants and not lore, +6/+7 augments drop fairly commonly in missions its not really too hard to max. As you can see from my magelo below my gear is far from uber, and I'm not where close to having all the best pre-EP stuff.

Imo the only one of the 4 melee stats thats difficult to cap at 305 without really uber stuff is AGI, not stamina.

Araxas dorf rogue - Antiar necro twink
Eternal Winds - Vazaelle

[EZ_Qutsemnie]

oh i stand corrected. if your not uber like the above guy isnt uber you can make it easy.








Edited by: Qutsemnie at: 10/24/03 10:16 pm

[EZ_Northerner]

You mean the 10 stamina augments that live in aug-slot 2? Sure they are cheaper than the 40 HP ones but surely you are not suggesting them as the way to cap stamina when the only reason to do so is to add HP. They do represent a cheaper upgrade path for the stamina challanged folks but they are hardly an answer. If there were buyable Slot 7 stamina augs at least I'd just be passing on resists or other miscellanous things.

As to the rarity of Stamina cheap/free drops, I can't really say. The RNG is a fickle beast but I've seen 2 drop in 65 or so missions so far. I didn't get either of course so it is pretty moot. Naturally I've not done that many missions so far but they are not dropping from the sky for me and they are desired by all when they do drop.

I am far from uber most certainly but my stamina sits at about 175 unbuffed and I do concern myself with stam/HP when deciding how to spend DKP or LDoN points. Naturally I choose Vengance/Aura first though and things like higher dps weapons even before that. Finding another 130 points is hardly trivial, even once I do spend the 30 into the stat. As I said before however, I still plan on grabbing the incorporeal BP just on the basis of planning long-term and I'll eat it on the stamina. I don't spend every minute in an AE anyways and max HP is really only a desired perk and not an absolute need.

[EZ_araxas xev]

Quote:You mean the 10 stamina augments that live in aug-slot 2?

No , I mean the Peerless Spheres of Fortitude, available for 300 points or so in EC and fit in all slots, and not lore. 300 points = 6 missions, not a whole lot to be boosting STA +10 a shot.

I stand by my opinion that you dont need to be EP-etc geared up to hell to max this stat with LDoN and AA points. Araxas dorf rogue - Antiar necro twink
Eternal Winds - Vazaelle

[EZ_Panamah]

I've done probably 60-70 missions and have only seen 3 +STA augments drop. Lost on them all. Probably saw 2-3 +hp ones too... also lost those.

[EZ_Dubbo]

That's really terrible luck, I see +stamina augments dropping commonly in LDoN. It's hard to go through a mission without seeing at least one, in my experience. I've seen just two of the +hp augments drop however, and didn't win either. [65 Deceiver] Marauder Dubb O`Boyce <Triune>

[EZ_KelceKindredsouls]

Thought I'd toss this out there...

Fungi + Veng4 gem? .: Kelce :.
.: Menacing Visage :.

[EZ_Senn Sei]

Fungi doesn't have any aug slots at all.

[EZ_Northerner]

Quote:No , I mean the Peerless Spheres of Fortitude, available for 300 points or so in EC and fit in all slots, and not lore. 300 points = 6 missions, not a whole lot to be boosting STA +10 a shot.

"Ruj 357 All Peerless Sphere of Fortitude Lore, Sta:10" is the listing in the commonly used database but I'll take a look at the merchant itself later. If it is not Lore then that certainly would be a decent way for me to max it out, although at the cost of a few open slots naturally. Thanks for the tip. Mind you, 7 adventures a shot and passing on any of the HP augs or resists for the slot is a little annoying but nothing I can't live with.

[EZ_QuentisLocksmythe]

please explain the 32 points of vengeance argument. I see 31 on the list, is there a Vengeance 1 for type 7? Quentis Locksmythe - Redeemed and Raging Assassin

MageloEdited by: QuentisLocksmythe at: 10/28/03 8:43 pm

[EZ_Vanthe]

Yes, the +10 STA augment from EC is LORE. Akael "Blinky" Bayn - 60 levels later, and still a gimp...

[EZ_ChoraRodcet]

I didn't know about the type 2 to type 1 nerf on the incorporeal when i just got my bp.

I'd still much rather have a 140hp bp by getting the type 2 +40 hp aug and probably get the +8sta +8agi combo aug (I can't think of anything better for the lame type 1 slot). I never considered the Mire. I'd rather have the more raw hp the Incorporeal can yield. Getting the type 3 chest only veng III aug seemed like a no brainer to me. Marauder Chora Dementia
65 Deceiver

Exarch Bijaz Deranged
65 ArchonEdited by: ChoraRodcet at: 1/22/04 1:34 am

[EZ_Northerner]

Hehe, well this post got revived so I might as well comment again.

I've now gotten the Chest, pants and mask and am only working on my V4 aug for the pants. I'll be the first to admit my initial focus on stamina was likely wasted. As I pick up other gear, capping stamina at 305 in buffs frankly is not such an issue and I'll surely replace the type 2 aug with something else (likely resists to be honest).

I still think of the Slot 3 CHEST vengance aug as a freaking bargain though. That BP will last me forever literally (barring crazy GoD stuff) and was far cheaper than what I am looking at now. Sure, I could have gotten an ornate BP and done the MM aug to it but I frankly value my DKP more than my "adventurer's points" I guess. That and I like my BP better in the end anyways. Celeris Tujimson
Maurading Deceiver of The Nameless

"Obviously crime pays, or there'd be no crime."
G. Gordon Liddy"