View Full Version : What makes Rogues #1 at melee damage?
12-30-03, 04:51 AM
I can certainly see that Backstab is powerful indeed, but I just cannot see how your average rogue can outdamage your average monk. Monks get Tripple Attack at 60, and with PB can even quad with 2HB.
It seems like there is something about rogues that I'm simply not getting - can anyone explain what makes rogues do so much damage?
Btw, I have a Goblin Spear of Dread Tidings (dam. 15) - anybody knows what the average damage will be at say lvl 55 with that weapon - or epic? (when Backstabbing that is).
Thanks in advance.
12-30-03, 05:34 AM
At 55 and up, a Rogue's Backstab becomes a very useful "burst" damage. You get Double Backstab at that level, which even at 55 and a 15 damage piercer, means you could optimally do up to 471 x 2 in one hit, on or about 5-5.5 second intervals if you have a haste (I think max bs for a 15 damage piercer at lvl 55 is 471ish...can't remember). Add it up; it's good damage.
Monks, even with Triple attack at 60 still rely on pure dps damage and no "burst" damage that Rogues get (unless you count the ever craptastic Tkicks).
Plus, as a Rogue levels, mainly lvl 60, 63 and 65, they get a new damage table, which will raise their backstabs even higher. I know myself, at 65 and with a 17 damage piercer, I have a bs cap of 703 on normal stabs, not counting when I crit or disc -- every 5 seconds, with just a normal chanter haste.
Monks can't really compete with that kindof damage.
In their defense though, Monks have good dps as an "all-around" class. Rogues are a positional class. Our dps sucks if we don't have a back in view. A monk will always beat us in a straight frontal fight (mainly due to mitigation, avoidance and pure melee speed).
**Edit** - Splelign and Grmamra~~~
Click the pic for my MageloEdited by: AsturiasAurora at: 12/30/03 5:36 am
12-30-03, 05:44 AM
Thank you, Coins - that was exactly the information I was looking for. I wasn't aware of the Double Backstab. I can see that it can quickly amount to a lot of damage.
Thanks once again.
12-31-03, 12:23 PM
DPS always fluctuates alot, so to give you a wide range, our backstab damage is usually somewhere about 25-40% of our damage: depending on if we miss a ton of backstabs during a fight, or land a ton. The general rule is, backstab is 1/3 of your damage. ATK Gear, FA, Fero, VQ, SoP etc. would also play a big role in this. This is why monk/bst weapons are usually higher dmg, or lower dly. (IE 18/20 TZ weap, or 19/21 RD weap). From the front, a monk will outdamage a rogue using equivalent weapons (for comparison to TZ or RD weapons, a rogue would be using a Gargoyle Talon [17/24] or Wicked Shank [16/21] etc.). But when you take a third of that entire damage and add it back on for backstab, they come out leaps and bounds higher than everyone.
12-31-03, 01:12 PM
There is another subtle effect in play also. Rogues have the luxury (to some degree) of building equipment around offense almost exclusively. We can use that Vengance item, despite it's horrid AC and poor HP, where another melee damage dealing class might be more hesitant. I certainly know my Monk pays considerably more attention to matters like AC than my Rogue would ever consider. Heck, my shaman does for that matter. This freedom in seeking procs and vengance items is not unique to the Rogue perhaps but we do benefit from it.
In the end though, it is indeed all about the backstab skill and the amount of time Rogues do spend positioned correctly. It still amazes me how many Monks and non-tanking Warriors I see on the front-side of a target in experience groups/LDoN adventures and that can cut dps dramatically. As pointed out above though, backstab accounts for a large damage increase (39% of my total damage in my latest log for example) and it outweighs triple attack + kick/tkick by a fair margain. Celeris Tujimson
Maurading Deceiver of The Nameless
"Obviously crime pays, or there'd be no crime."
G. Gordon Liddy"
12-31-03, 04:49 PM
I can sum this up in one word:
STYLE! Turlo Lomon
Officer of Final Fury
12-31-03, 09:07 PM
01-01-04, 01:13 AM
Its all in the way that rogues attack. We rarely need anything like AC or damage mitigation because frankly, we don't get hit very often. I stay behind the mob poking it, getting no ripostes and evading. If for some reason i get agro and evade dosent work, well i'll get 5-6 secs of the mob beating on me and then i can hit evade again. Hell if that fails again i just back off. All this just means i can focus on one thing - dmg output. I can suffer with craptastic AC if it means my dps increases. Veteren Orodruin Olorin ~ 65 Deceiver of Veritable Quandary on Tarew Marr.
Grandmaster Poison Maker (250)
"Im an assassin. Black is what I wear. The night is black and so am I.
And black has such style, and an assassin without style is just a highly paid arrogant thug."
- Terry Pratchett "The Night Watch"
Gorgwath Simbelmyne - 47 Wizard (MIA)
01-01-04, 03:19 AM
well if it makes you feel better 65 monk *not sure if elemental or not* parsed out at 130dps. *in pod*
I at 63 parsed out at 97.2dps with only haste and then i got 130 a few fights later, and with duelist i got 230. *in bot*
that was two days ago im 65 now and havent got around to parsing myself yet. Beggie's Profile My Guild
01-02-04, 06:59 AM
What buffs did the monk have, and what buffs did you have during your parses? Also, you have to post the duration of the parse for it to have any meaning, and any parse shorter then about half an hour is pretty pointless.
Over the course of a night I show wild fluctuations in my dps. Yesterday in ldon I had one mob where I parsed ~97, and later I had one where I parsed ~378. I was not using a disc for either mob. On the first mob I was 0 for 7 (3 double attempts and one single) on backstabs. On the second mob I was 6 for 6, with 5 of those being a crit, and two of those crits for max (1273). So, short parses really don't mean much. You have to look at a much larger period of time, usually on the order of hours, to get an accurate read on what your dps is. -Sinc
There is no I in team, but there is a U in suck.
01-05-04, 06:22 AM
Here's a parse I did a while ago (before new discs)
Mob is General Reparm in PoF. A reasonable length raid mob.
Mob was cornered so I had its back to me almost all of the fight.
Assume everyone had full raid buffs.
Time of fight is about 4 mins 30
Me (Rogue)......64129...246.65 dps
mage pet....3439...92.95 dps
beast lord......15017...63.63 dps
shaman pet...2489...37.15 dps
paladin pet (from pet proc weapon)...641...14.57 dps
Clearly shows rogues out dps other classes.
PS in Rangers defense this mob is cornered all the time and archery isnt an option. Knivek Muppet
Dark Templars Xegony
www.darktemplarsguild.co.ukEdited by: Knivek at: 1/5/04 6:32 am
01-05-04, 06:30 AM
I've never been the ubah rogue, so to speak. I've done well for myself, slowly working on my gear and whatnot. My damage is average, at best.
Imagine my surprise in the last week that I've been parsed with duelist at 295-307dps.
I'd love not to call that a fluke. I'm too realistic not to. But, oh, the hope...the hope...
01-05-04, 12:29 PM
Not one nuker listed on the Reparm parse? I usually don't parse well on Reparm as I do on other mobs since he tends to drop tanks, so /attack off on tank switches and on enrage, but it's still good enough to be the top damage on him consistently. Most PoF mobs have decent resists (fire nukes won't land, of course) so casters don't parse as well here as they do in other zones.
01-06-04, 02:06 AM
Post was only about melee damage Derrict :) and I always have difficultity parsing casters, hehe.
01-06-04, 03:34 AM
Quote:Post was only about melee damage Derrict and I always have difficultity parsing casters, hehe.
if you're picking up other melee hits, you'd have no problems picking up other non-melee hits. On our pinned mobs (pretty much everything in Fire, half of Earth, I don't parse in Water often, I rarely parse Air) I can parse casters accurately since I'm right on the mob's center hitbox. In places like air and water where you have to fight in the open and move with the mob, there's probably 20-30% of the damage I don't pick up.
01-06-04, 05:47 AM
Backstab simply is that powerful. Backstab does as much damage as main hand does. This means a rogue wielding a 15/20 weapon, is efectively fighting as someone without backstab would with a 15/10 weapon. Tripple attack and special moves are simply not on par with the power of backstab. Ishwar - level 65 Barbarian Rogue - GM smith