View Full Version : Enchanters, what we really need
04-02-03, 12:49 PM
Bottom line, catch an enchanter even remotely unprepared and a green 1 green 50 levels below him, can take him. I think that's pretty telling all by itself.
It's not that enchanters are uber or sweet or totally awesome, because frankly they are not. On a good day, I can stop the world, pull matrix moves left and right, rune myself silly, but when it's all said and done ... we have 0 [zero] dps. Oh yes i can buff, debuff, haste, mana regen, and "turn the tides" but I am incapable of determining an outcome.
EXCEPT by charm.
Currently everyone is screaming about charming people soloing. What they don't realize is, outside of that equation there is nothing an enchanter can do. We have no DD's to really speak of. We have no melee abilities to speak of. And, these are the only 2 ways that damage can be done, and xp be had, i.e. fun. Charm is the only alternative an enchanter has to bring him back into the picture.
Note i'm only talking about enchanters. not necros, clerics, mages, bards, or druids. Every other class has some inherent alternative to charming whereby they have dps of any significance. We, do not.
I tried to bring this up at the dev board at fanfaire, but some whiney girl cut me off. [she had a good question, but she was still whiney, or is that just every girl imho]
My point was, if you nerf charm to curb necros and their 15 min AA's. you're going to emasculate enchanters beyond coherence. Already I know people who quit the game with the threat of that patch. Maybe it was more widespread than I thought, since that patch was CANCELLED. (sp)
This game is about dps nothing else matters. A cleric seemingly doubles / triples / or quadruples dps or any of the other purely support classes. But note that even clerics have an alternative. Again enchanters do not.
So when someone is screaming about someone soloing and getting AA's every 5 minutes, sit back and stop and think.
1. that person is already lvl 65 in the first place
2. that person probably has no alternative to using a god given tactic [ ok maybe not god but SOE would like to think they are :P ]
3. without that tactic, that person would probably be sitting in the corner picking their nose [ not a fun thought at all ]
I'll adress other flaws in the enchanter class later on. STop nerfing enchanters. That's all we've ever received. :"> [i]
04-02-03, 01:26 PM
Charm as it is on Test right now is okay. Not great, but okay. (I'd prefer to have a little -MR adjust on Command of Druzzil)
Chanters have gotten a lot more than we've been nerfed. I remember when we didn't even have clarity, for example. -Bukk<BR>
04-02-03, 03:03 PM
Dude that was in beta. Don't compare beta with the live version. Heck if you go back far enough we didn't have clarity. Bards had clarity, mez, and some other stuff enchanters are now thought to have as defining abilities. From what I've gathered from beta, enchanters were supposed to be exactly that, ENCHANTERS i.e. making magical items and stuff. They didn't have time in beta to impliment the intent so they just went with whatever came to mind. i.e. they didn't have clarity, mez and such so in order to make them more popular ... cuz remember noone played an enchanter back then ... they gave them some stuff. It was and it seems still is, the unfinished class.
And btw NOT EVERY ENCHANTER IS LVL 64+ . I'm sick to death of everyone talking about 65 as if that were the only lvl. Contrary to popular belief the majority of enchanters are not 61+.
And yes I will complain if they nerf one of the only means the class has of doing dps. WE don't have an uber skeleton pet, nor an uber mage elemental pet as an alternative. We don't have a god aweful DD spell that will melt obsidian dragons in an instant. We don't have an inherent sow song/spell that can get us out of jail free. We don't have a dot worth mentioning.
All those other classes do. And fyi SOE needs and wants to hear the other side. Instead of everyone whining about how aweful it is that some uber guild thrice flagged necro who is lvl 65 [who's game is practically over ] soloing to get AA points, SOE needs to hear that they should reconsider making a blanket nerf because they may do more harm than good and ultimately may not achieve what they intended to do.
Can we say: uber monks didn't even notice the mitigation nerf?
I bet a dime to a dollar that the same necros won't even notice the difference in their 6 minute AA's.
04-03-03, 03:43 AM
You are wrong to think everything is about DPS. People are not screaming for rogues left and right, which they would be if DPS was all that mattered.
Any caster unprepared (EI no spells loaded) will get owned.
Chanters have a pet, dont say they cant solo in other ways than charm. You may not like the speed, but you probably do it better than rogues. Besides chanters are group classes, they are not supposed to be able to solo (like warriors, rogues and clerics)
While a chanter will bring less direct damage to a group than a cleric, the indirect damage from haste and atk buffs, is very significant.
I like the charm nerf that seems to be comming, and many others do as well. If that means you quit the game, that is your call. Ishwar - level 60 Barbarian Rogue - GM smith
04-05-03, 09:57 PM
I would prefer if the nerf was directed at the PoP content that sony just added not at the spells that have been in game for many years already. Vyxn64 Rathe Rogue
04-07-03, 11:54 AM
Here's my issue. Why does it matter to anyone else how I level as compared to how you level.
People are taking issue with Necros, Bards, Druids, and enchanters on them *at LEVEL 65* being able to get AA points. They are not even talking about leveling. AA points. And for this Sony is going to nerf charm in all it's aspects, including the amount of xp you get from a kill.
1. this will in no way fix the issue.
2. this will not stop charm soloing
3. this will not stop Massive amounts of AA points inc. from charm soloing.
4. this will emasculate enchanters more than the other 3 classes afformentioned due to the enchanters lack of alternative damage.
It's #4 i'm concerned about. I had hoped they would take a long good hard look at #4 before going ahead with the planned nerf.
Next, why is a nerf necessary? Because some guy at the end of his character wants to get more AA? Is it that the people able to charm solo and get massive AA are the norm OR is it that the person able to charm solo is already in an uber guild and you are complaining about some 733t d00d who could probably play this game in his sleep anyway.
This nerf seems just like the monk nerf. It will harm the mediocre, normal and weak player more than the intended "victim". All the uber monks didn't notice a difference from the damage mitigation nerf. The nerf served no purpose, "as intended". i think this upcoming enchanter nerf will do the same thing. Those who are soloing frogs in the crypt [ i have no idea what a frog in a crypt is mind you ] will probably notice no difference ... whereas the necro or enchanter soloing specs in The oasis of marr will be hard pressed to get through those excrutiating 20's.
As stated by the technical director of soe, this nerf is for all of charm. This is going to hurt everyone from lvl 65 on down.
Lastly, a point in the charm nerf is that your xp will be decreased according to the amount of damage the pet does vs what you do to the intended target. Necros, druids and bards to lesser extent can probably do equal amounts of damage to a target, enchanters can't to the same degree. From my knowledge we get:
1. a 300 dot
2. a 1012 dot
3. a 700 DD [ lengthy recast time ]
There is no way an enchanter could ever equal the damage output a charmed pet could do, for xp purposes. Therefore, this will hurt enchanters more than other classes with charm.
As to your comment about them not always asking for rogues. When I put together groups [which is normally the case] I ask them what classes they want. Rogues just happen to be lower on the list than Wizards and epic'ed mages. For melees they always suggest sk's/ pally's for agro tanks, warriors for MT if available, and monks for pure dps. The rest are the essentials: clerics, enchanters, shamans [normally those three are all in the same group ] so groups are comprised of :
sk / pally / warriors
Wizards / mages
So from my perspective and all my friends, it's all bout dps [ again with clerics being able to double or triple the dps output due to their healing role ]
04-08-03, 01:31 AM
I care about how fast other classes can solo exp, because it derectly affects my ability to form and or get groups.
Everything you do or do not do in a multiplayer game affects everyone else to some extend. Ishwar - level 60 Barbarian Rogue - GM smith
EZ_Nitro of the Orb
04-08-03, 09:06 AM
Quote: Bottom line, catch an enchanter even remotely unprepared and a green 1 green 50 levels below him, can take him. I think that's pretty telling all by itself.
Welcome to the life of a mage... how do you think *I* solo in PoP? or a rogue? or a monk? or a warrior? or a paladin (maybe CoD but it would be tough)? or a shadowknight (I've heard of some sketchy SK soloing, but never seen much of it myself)...
At least you have root ^_^ [65 Arch Convoker] Draogan <The Dark Exile> Server: Seventh Hammer
04-08-03, 09:23 AM
Ok iswar tell me why a necro, bard, druid or enchanter soloing AT LVL 65 for AA points affects whether or not you get into a group.
That's specifically what the hoopla is about. necro's in the crypt soloing frogs and getting 9 minute AA's or bards getting 6 minute AA's. But all these characters are at lvl 65. This in no way affects anyone else. In fact, I can only image ALL of these characters are in some guild or vying for some higher requirement guild. To do what? go on raids.
Again I come to enchanters. I aked around yesterday and every enchanter I spoke with from 44 on up said, "yup enchanters are gonna get the royal treatment without lube when they nerf us".
04-08-03, 08:06 PM
Welcome to the beginning life of a rogue... oh you can't solo ? Let me cry for you while I get owned by green cons with 72 aa, and high end gear.
Enchanters are a grouping class, AND can solo WAY better than rogues. with the charm nuerf, I don't know how it will be. but at least you will be able to kill nameds for loot.
an enchanter adds more dmg to a group than any other class. it's called haste. you have atk buffs(in haste, boon, scarecrow). You add more dmg to wizards with the clarity line. You add more healing to the group with your clarity line.
Enchanters alone make certain places possible to exp. (hello hello mez?) I'm sorry dude, but I can't follow your "poor enchanter" thing. Enchanters have it fine(I play one also).
As much as I will miss charming, I can't say it's not deserved to be changed.
04-08-03, 11:24 PM
I play a level 65 enchanter. (But I do not have COD yet)
I play a level 55 rogue.
First off, why should charm be nerfed as it has been:
o Enchanters can charm a PoP mob and with a small group take on bosses that raids have problems with. This destroys the intent of "content". It no longer is an issue of AA's, but loot, progress in the game, and game balance.
o Enchanters getting AAs can also "farm" their experience to other characters. As an example, I was in a nice group in BOT the other day. (My Enchanter.) We were getting an AA about every two hours. We had a mage with an elemental pet doing much of the damage. The rogue commented how slow the exp was compared to her group earlier in the day. What group was this? Well... Tank, Cleric, Rogue, and 3 COD enchanters with pets. The result? 5 AAs in 3 hours for everyone in the group.
o Enchanter without charm still get in groups easily enough. (Though with COD getting more common, it would get harder and harder in the higher levels to get into a group without COD and CM3)
Now--- why are the changes the WRONG changes
o First off, the COD enchanters have full Charm mastery. If CM3 becomes unreliable, no CM will mean charm is useless. In other words, you need the AAs to be able to use a spell at all. This happens in other parts of the game as AAs become more common, more classes are going to be ballanced for the folks with 100 or 200 AAs instead of 6.
o Charm has become a secondary ability for enchanters instead of a primary ability. The reason for this mentioned below from a game design point of view.
o If Game Balance is geared for the "uber guild" Enchanter with the full set of spells and equipment (as the monk change was originally set) then those without that equipment and spells will be left behind (as the monk change was originally set) The alternative is to reduce the gain from those spells and equipment, which is against the game vision.
So--- why is Charm such a pain in the side of game design?
Well, normally the rules for monsters and players are not the same. Lets face it, monsters are designed to be killed (in mass) by players near their level. Players get to decide when, how, and preparation of killing the mobs. (Usually) At the higher levels, so things are not too easy, mobs get to cheat in more ways so that the group to mob ratio of 6 to 1 isn't just a turkey shoot. Before PoP this was by increasing armor, resists, and hit points. But this just made for a boring fight, not a good one. So in PoP they tried High damage, moderate hit points.
Now comes the problem with charm. Charm allows players to decide to use a mob that cheats as his pet. Lets say we had a mob that CH'ed every other second. Lets say it could be charmed. Think how unbalancing this would be for the players... but it would only be a difficult mob as a target.
Now, lets look at agro. You are a coder trying to decide who your mob should attack. Lets see... Choice one : The pet. Well if it dies - you still have six people about to kill you. Not good. The Tank. Well that is the group's intent. Not bad to give them what they want... oh but the pet kills the mob before the mob can do any real threat. Hmm the healers or the chanter.. Yep good idea, but this screws necros, mages, Beastlords badly.
Personal opinion - the fix they should have done would have been like PvP... Have mobs do less damage against their own kind. In other words, Mitigate any charmed pet in damage by 30% less (or even 50%). THe pet would then be useful, and not quite so over powerful.