View Full Version : Cross-teaming
EZ_Frankly
05-09-01, 12:57 PM
I can't understand why this steams some people. To me it provides another form of role-playing. It's like those players on Rallos who delight in being anti-PKs. Rallos PKers are always bitter about "antis", and Vallon & Tallon PKers are always bitter about cross-teamers. Why's it so hard to understand that some people enjoy being good guys and spreading the message of peace, love, and tolerance & so on?
I think we cross-teamers are misunderstood. We NEED jerk PKers to give our lives meaning. It's no fun being a cop if there are no criminals.
I guess the "cross-teaming is bad" attitude reaches its extreme in Dark Age of Camelot, where different teams can't even talk to each other. I think it makes the game poorer, because at one stroke you've disallowed the whole realm of politics and alliances.
EZ_MajestykVZ
05-09-01, 01:35 PM
I don't see what's so difficult for you cross teamers to understand. I couldn't care less if, you group for PvE or guild for communications. You can even attack the same characters in PvP.
However when you heal a character of a different team(race)while that character is in PvP combat with a character of your own team(race), you are betraying your team(race) and exploiting the server mechanics. You are causing damage to a member of your own team while remaining immune from attack yourself.
How hard is it to understand that this is behavior that will not be considered to be in the spirit of the server? If, you can't be good. at least, be good at it.Majestyk, Rogue,Shanks,Vallon Zek!Edited by: MajestykVZ at: 5/9/01 4:49:59 pm
The main problem is that it is the most powerful tactic available, next to training npcs which is illegal. Its not fun, anti-roleplay, and anti the spirit of the Team-PvP server. The intent with the PvP server was to create a sense of homeland and a team to which you belong, people who fight at your back.
As it stands now, the homeland is the most dangerous place to engage in PvP, due to the prevalence of immortal healers. The most powerful tactic you can use to dislodge your foes, is to log in several clerics of the same race as your opponent and use them to fight free from recourse.
So, when you exploit immortal healing in Team-PvP, the mechanics actually turn out to reward Xteaming over pureteaming, or pacifism over PvP. There is a server that is intended for crossteaming and that is Rallos. There are plenty of servers for pacifism. We want to play Team-PvP.
Here is a link to a post I made recently on the subject.
Wotan Shaman Elder of the Shanks
It is better to have less thunder in the mouth and more lightning in the hand. - Apache Proverb
EZ_Frankly
05-09-01, 04:37 PM
I love you Shanks. You add a lot of character to Vallon.
But why is it entirely up to you to determine what's "in the spirit of the server"? It's great to blame someone for "betraying their team" *in-character*, but out-of-character there's no excuse. Everyone has their own ideas about what team-spirit is and what constitutes patriotism. On the team-servers this is determined by a kind of huge mass consensus. When races disagree about who they're fighting and who they're allied with--that's cool, because that's a dimension that doesn't exist on any other kind of server. If too many of your own race's healers disagree with what you're doing, then clearly you're the one who's not listing to what your team wants. The ebb and flow of politics give Vallon and Tallon something no other servers have: a history. The ebb-and-flow of Elf-Gnome relations on Vallon alone would make a good-sized monograph.
Rallos is NOT a cross-teaming server. You can't cross-team when there are no teams. I play on Rallos these days, and while it has it's advantages, the role-playing choices are much narrower than on Vallon. Rallos is just missing an entire level of interaction--the teams. There are no borders, consequently no smuggling. No one hates you automatically on sight, consequently there's no thrill in over-coming prejudice. Etc., etc.
I think the Shanks are a great PK guild, but I can't understand why you get so angry at people who want to take advantage of the role-playing possibilities of a teams server in a way that's different from yours. By mandating how people have to play, you're decreasing the role-playing opportunites on the server, because you're decreasing the number of roles there are.
::raises an eyebrow at Frankly::
Who's mandating what? I believe both posts above say that four team play is fine and the emphasis is disagreement in play is in the abuse of game mechanics NOT roleplay options. We revel in roleplay options, in fact we helped create one. It has never been "entirely up to" us to say anything on the server. By your own reasoning the growing popularity of pure team play would mean "then clearly you're the one who's not listing to what your team wants".
If you wish to debate the Shanks views on this topic it might be better to take this to our own message boards:
www.talonguard.org/shanks . Or to the EQ Vault Vallon board.
If you wish to continue a general discussion please continue but so far your specific mention of the Shanks and your phrasing seems to me that you wish a one on discussion in which case please refer to the boards I mentioned above. Fricka of the Vallon Zek Shanks
Safehouse Ring Warden
Rogue Class member of Midgard, Dark Age of Camelot Beta 3
Fricka curtsies elegantly...while picking your pocket.
Sig Gallery
Nice post Frankly, and thanks for the compliments.
I actually agree quite strongly with you about the roleplay possibilities of cooperation with other races. I see the original intent for the server as a mixture of alliance and conflict between the teams, not pure conflict.
Let me first disabuse you of the notion that I am "angry" with people who want to roleplay differently. Variety is what quality roleplay is about, and the Shanks would be my first example of that. I have no resentment against those who choose to roleplay an alliance with even the evil races, and in fact enjoyed an encounter I had with one such player this weekend.
Secondly, I want to note that we Shanks do not characterize ourselves as a "PK" guild, and in fact, applicants who cite a desire to join a PK guild as their motivation to join, generally do not find their way in.
But my primary point of contention with you Frankly, is to paint my position as somehow trying to limit the roleplay options of others. The truth is much more the reverse. I don't think that it is unreasonable to think that some sense of cohesive teams was intended for the PvP servers and as you have noted, it adds quite a bit of spice to the roleplay, that is missing on Rallos. I also think it fairly obvious that the inability to strike members of your own team, was not intended to make attacking your own team, far easier and freer from recourse than fighting opposing teams.
If you follow the hyperlink in my post above you will find, very clearly articulated, specifically what I object to. In brief summary, it is those who misuse the mechanics of immortal healing to slay members of their own team. This has become widely recognized as the most effective tactic for PvP and there are many of us strongly hoping that Verant will realize the necessity of a "fix" for this exploit.
Wotan Shaman Elder of the Shanks
It is better to have less thunder in the mouth and more lightning in the hand. - Apache ProverbEdited by: I am Wotan at: 5/9/01 7:39:35 pm
An example of the way this can be exploited (using totally fictious people and setting)
Imagine a world where three teams exist, the Blue Bombers, Green Hornets, and Red Racers. One day Fred of the Hornets is patrolling his turf, and he spots a quite tough looking Racer. He cons him and sees that he is yellow. Fred decides to try and take him down anyway, does some Rping about the need for vile ruffians to flee ect. Fred lucks out some, the Racer was slightly wounded, or low on mana, or caught by suprise ect and evens the score enough that it's a close fight. Then from out of nowhere another Hornet comes up and starts healing the Racer. Fred looks agast, his life is fading and he cant keep the damage greater than the healing. He asks the Hornet why he has done this and recieves a rude tell (I won't go there-use your imagination). Fred is then turned into messy noodles and recieve some more tells abouting being owned and how he is generally inferior to the ubermenschen that just cheated on him.
On the other side of the world, a red con Blue Bomber is in a Red Racer newbie zone nuking down the lvl 4s. Hes been doing this since anyone can remember, and seems to delight in it. The newbies band together, gather some lvl 7 or 8s and begin to win, when in comes his savior, a Red Racer druid who slaps some heals and a really nasty damage shield on him. Eventually he gets killed by a lvl 16 Red Racer, but refuses to leave the zone and begins to bind rush, each time being damage shielded and healed by the druid, who sits down and meds during the fight, immune to attack from his own team.
Now I ask you, how would you explain this in a roleplaying sense? Even the most passive and restrained society would take action against the cretins named above, but because of the coding of the game, they can not. And that my friend is a exploit. It's like flying a WWII fighter game with unlimited ammo and damage turned off, you are in a cheating stance, and all victories are tainted. I agree with Maj, if you wanna xteam, it's your call, but if you Xteam and heal against your own team, your cheating plain and simple.
Marbh 50th Lvl retired Rogue of Mith Marr
Khargas Shank Warrior
EZ_MajestykVZ
05-10-01, 07:45 AM
Let's use a sports anology.
Football. What do you think your teams reaction would be if, you consistently blocked one of your own team mates from tackling an opposing teams running back? You'd be booted from the team.
*edit*
Also, addressing your point on majority rule, many of the players on the team servers have been forced to accept the crossteam alliances. Many of the players went to the team servers, expecting to play 4v4 team PvP, only to find themselves faced with cross team players, who would heal/buff their opponents while remaining immune from attack themselves. They simply did not wish to put forth the effort it takes to resist the immortal crossteam beneficial spell casting exploit and capitulated to the crossteamers view of team play. Edited by: MajestykVZ at: 5/10/01 10:20:42 am
EZ_Ceescrit da Bossalini
05-10-01, 08:11 AM
Ha! You just gave me a great idea Maj...
What if, when you did assist another team PC against a same team PC (Immortal healing/buffing) in PvP, that you WOULD be botted from your team as a race traitor. This would actually create a 5th team, or the "crossteamers" as I like to call them, and put them on the Red team (discord). This means that Team vs. Team would still work them same way, but the Red teamers become FFA targets (can be hit by anyone within the +/- 8 level range, even their own team, etc), and you would never get a faction hit for killing one.
OMG I'm a genious
Now somone flame me. [b]Ceescrit Bossalini
Crime Boss of Vallon Zek
>Illuvitae
Hehe Ceescrit flames are for the VZ board.
Intriguing idea though.
EZ_Elegance
05-10-01, 12:08 PM
"OMG I'm a genious "
its true
Diabalein Avidya
Practicing Proctologist For 31 Lvls Of Pure Anal Probing Fun
131 points of Loving, Hand delivered on the end of a sharp stick
EZ_Frankly
05-10-01, 12:22 PM
Counter-example: a halfling and a human rogue are grouped in EC whacking Orcs to get their Reserve Militia Tunics. Suddenly, in the middle of a pull when they're both low on life, a PK Gnome gank comes from out of nowhere and starts blasting the human. What can the halfling do to help his friend?
Answer: nothing.
The point is that certain aspects of team play frustrate all of us, cross-teamers and 4-teamers alike. Unless you're a healing class, there's nothing at all you can do to fight any truly evil PKs you run across that are on your own team.
Of course, now that Vallon is a no-item-loot server, it's a lot harder to BE a truly evil PK. That's another topic.
So okay, I can see how the immortal-healing thing could be frustrating. But if you look at the replies to the thread you mention, Wotan, most people aren't saying "Yes, we should be able to find a fix for immortal healing"...they're saying "Man, xteams SUCK."
On Vallon I was in an all-rogue, all-race guild. It was a hoot! Us against the world! But I was often and bitterly accused of NOT role-playing, going against the "spirit of the server", etc. This is the kind of reaction I can't understand, and why I started the thread in the first place.
I didn't start out trying to poke anything at the Shanks in particular. You guys were always some of my favorite enemies. One of the funnest days I had on Vallon was once when thirty Shanks came boiling into Misty and took over the zone. As for the Shanks not being a PK guild...maybe things have changed LOL. I haven't played on Vallon since the loot changes. But I remember them as being right up there with Warriors of Hades or Tiny Thugs. I suppose it's inevitable that guilds mellow as they advance and get more concerned with levelling. The PK guilds that don't mellow as they age tend to just disappear. But I take that back...Shanks were always different because they were always consistent. When my warrior ran up to Permafrost to get her Icy Greaves even the greenie Shanks were attacking her. That's practically the opposite of PK-guild behavior. (Interesting end to that story: in our chatter between fights "Die mutant!" "I'll chop you off at the knees geek!" she discovered I was a smith and commisioned me to make banded pants for her. =D)
Bah! I miss the old Vallon. I have great hopes for DAoC. Except for the no cross-teaming thing, they seem to have gotten team PvP right. It DOES seem strange that they would try to build a whole new game by takeing EQ's LEAST popular servers as an example.
Frankly.
Frankly, you don't make any sense. In the face of logic, you back down and dodge the question. "Evil PKs?" As you admit, there's little room for evil PK's on a coin loot server. You could just call them inconveniences who slow down your exp bar. Or, you could have a roleplaying perspective to it. Who's evil? Members of the race you hate. Really, if you want to play "rogues-of-all-races hold-hands, play on a bluebie server. Or do it on Rallos.
Edited by: Lisboa at: 5/10/01 3:49:06 pm
EZ_Frankly
05-10-01, 02:13 PM
Ah! So you're saying, Lisboa, on an item-loot server, cross-teaming is okay, but on a coin-loot server, it's not? What kind of sense does THAT make?
Praytell, what question am I dodging?
In fact, I do play on Rallos these days exactly because Vallon became a no-loot server. But Rallos is not as rich an experience as playing on old Vallon was. It was fun to battle cross-team prejudice on a team server. Didn't I say that already?
All I'm doing is asking WHY people get so upset other people who like role-playing cross-teamers, and your reaction is typical. I'm told to shut my mouth and get off the server because I like role-playing in a different way than you do.
Please explain your roleplaying principles then.
Good vs. evil. Clearly roleplaying but in a way that's to the pure teamists dismay. It does not disrupt pure teamist play to the extent if the pure teamist is on the evil team or fighting the evil team.
Pure teamists. Quite possibly roleplaying: They hate all other races.
Pure cross teamers. Anti-roleplaying. Hated by both of the above because their practices, if used to the fullest potential, make both styles of play impossible.
Explain how you "roleplay" this. If you imagine that all races should be getting along, and all dark elves and trolls and so on are just Drizzts, then you should be on a blue server. This happens to be really tiring to me.
If instead you want dark elves to group with wood elves and protect each other from dark elves who want to kill wood elves and the wood elves who want to kill dark elves, then play on Rallos, where your messed up teaming does not adversely affect the above two. It has nothing to do with whether it's item or coin loot.
Hehe, ok I'll concede that Fricka is right, noone ever reads stuff you link to. Its a bit of a novel, but Frankly, it answers your scenario question quite explicitly.
As for the PK thing, I find the label to be rather meaningless on a server specifically earmarked for PvP. In addition, it has negative connotations associated with griefplay (as evinced by the threads currently running in the Rant Hall). The Shanks are a close-knit band of loyal, bloodthirsty, and xenocidal barbarians. We seek to recruit those of like mind and bearing. I did not mean to imply that we have mellowed, no quite the reverse.
Order of the Black Rose is an excellent example of roleplay-based crossteaming that is quite inoffensive. If you were to ask those who agreed with me on that thread, you would hear a fairly unanimous endorsement of OBR. Thats because they are a well-run, quality guild with a solid premise. Its also because they do not exploit immortal healing to kill members of their own team. I guarantee you, that if you encountered such behaviour by an OBR and documented it with screenshots and logs, they would correct the problem.
Bottom line: If you read complaints about xteaming as trying to stifle roleplay, you are missing the point by about a mile. The truth is that immortal healing is used as a tool to harass and gain an advantage over those who try in good faith to play the server as intended, whether pure-team or no. It is not necessary to engage in immortal teamkilling to roleplay an alliance with another team. Wotan Shaman Elder of the Shanks
It is better to have less thunder in the mouth and more lightning in the hand. - Apache Proverb
EZ_Frankly
05-10-01, 07:20 PM
I'll state my role-playing principles in as simple a way as I can: I enjoy fighting bigots.
Of course, in order to fight them, you actually have to HAVE them. They only exist on team servers. So don't tell me to go to a Blue server. Insulting! Don't tell me Rallos is the place for cross-teamers. There are no teams! In a way, Lisboa, my way of role-playing and yours are completely complimentary. You enjoy role-playing a xenophobe, and I enjoy fighting xenophobes.
So my question is why you don't enjoy the idealogical conflict as much as I do.
Wotan: I think you and I agree about a lot of things. I'm glad you like my rogue's guild. ALTHOUGH "As for the PK thing, I find the label to be rather meaningless on a server specifically earmarked for PvP". LOL Wotan, PKers ALWAYS say just exactly that. It's one of the things that seems to define a PKer.
Okay, a short anecdote supporting my role-playing principles. My main on Vallon (a warrior) started an all-team anti-PK guild. These used to be called "police" guilds. One of our officers was an Ogre names Smallberries. At level 8 he ran up to Misty Thicket and got bound there. His schtick was: "Me not Ogre. Me halfling with glandular problem!" You wouldn't believe the horror among the newbies! Scattering everywhere shouting "Ahhh!!! Ogre in the zone!" Imagine you're a halfling newbie and an Ogre 8 levels over you runs up and begins casting. You're backing up wondering what to do...and voila! You're SoWed, and the Ogre sits down next to you companionably and says "You please got some for for mes?"
Sure, Smallberries got PKed and ganked endlessly. But in the end he won most of the halflings over and became something of a mascot to them. It was an exhilarating experience, and it couldn't happen anywhere but a team server.
My feelings about role-playing are complicated, because when I went to Rallos I really MISSED the bigots. It was just plain WRONG to see High Elves levelling up in Misty Thicket or Dark Elves levelling up in Permafrost as if it were no big deal. I mean, for one Dark Elf to run to Perma and make friends and gradually win the Barbs over...what a triumph! But when it's taken for granted that anyone could do that...yech, how boring.
After this thread I'm reaching this conclusion: 4-teamers get upset about cross-teamers because they have trouble separating their in-character and their out-of-character attitudes. In-character they hate "traitors to their race", and so out-of-character they have to hate the same people.
That's one thing I like about the PK servers. Everyone role-plays whether they want to or not, because everyone has an attitude toward PK and how it should be handled. Myself, I can't PK an innocent. I know. I tried. I ran my Dark Elf mage up to Perma at level 12 and bound myself and had an entire backpack full of azurite and I was ready to PK! But there's an innocent Barbarian Shaman medding in the snow after a tough fight with a polar bear cub, and I just couldn't do it. Then a Gnome gank came into the zone and I killed him (barbarians cheering a Dark Elf--how bizarre) and I realized what role I was meant to play.
Frankly.
EZ_Frankly
05-10-01, 07:22 PM
I'll state my role-playing principles in as simple a way as I can: I enjoy fighting bigots.
Of course, in order to fight them, you actually have to HAVE them. They only exist on team servers. So don't tell me to go to a Blue server. Insulting! Don't tell me Rallos is the place for cross-teamers. There are no teams! In a way, Lisboa, my way of role-playing and yours are completely complimentary. You enjoy role-playing a xenophobe, and I enjoy fighting xenophobes.
So my question is why you don't enjoy the idealogical conflict as much as I do.
Wotan: I think you and I agree about a lot of things. I'm glad you like my rogue's guild. ALTHOUGH "As for the PK thing, I find the label to be rather meaningless on a server specifically earmarked for PvP". LOL Wotan, PKers ALWAYS say just exactly that. It's one of the things that seems to define a PKer.
Okay, a short anecdote supporting my role-playing principles. My main on Vallon (a warrior) started an all-team anti-PK guild. These used to be called "police" guilds. One of our officers was an Ogre names Smallberries. At level 8 he ran up to Misty Thicket and got bound there. His schtick was: "Me not Ogre. Me halfling with glandular problem!" You wouldn't believe the horror among the newbies! Scattering everywhere shouting "Ahhh!!! Ogre in the zone!" Imagine you're a halfling newbie and an Ogre 8 levels over you runs up and begins casting. You're backing up wondering what to do...and voila! You're SoWed, and the Ogre sits down next to you companionably and says "You please got some for for mes?"
Sure, Smallberries got PKed and ganked endlessly. But in the end he won most of the halflings over and became something of a mascot to them. It was an exhilarating experience, and it couldn't happen anywhere but a team server.
My feelings about role-playing are complicated, because when I went to Rallos I really MISSED the bigots. It was just plain WRONG to see High Elves levelling up in Misty Thicket or Dark Elves levelling up in Permafrost as if it were no big deal. I mean, for one Dark Elf to run to Perma and make friends and gradually win the Barbs over...what a triumph! But when it's taken for granted that anyone could do that...yech, how boring.
After this thread I'm reaching this conclusion: 4-teamers get upset about cross-teamers because they have trouble separating their in-character and their out-of-character attitudes. In-character they hate "traitors to their race", and so out-of-character they have to hate the same people.
That's one thing I like about the PK servers. Everyone role-plays whether they want to or not, because everyone has an attitude toward PK and how it should be handled. Myself, I can't PK an innocent. I know. I tried. I ran my Dark Elf mage up to Perma at level 12 and bound myself and had an entire backpack full of azurite and I was ready to PK! But there's an innocent Barbarian Shaman medding in the snow after a tough fight with a polar bear cub, and I just couldn't do it. Then a Gnome gank came into the zone and I killed him (barbarians cheering a Dark Elf--how bizarre) and I realized what role I was meant to play.
Frankly.
Greldek
05-10-01, 07:41 PM
I didn't read the last few posts, but
Frankly you asked, some thing like, why's it ok to cross team on item loot servers, but not coin only loot servers..
well the answer should be obvsious to even a monkey...
coin loot servers are team, item loots is all vs all
Thats why.
[/I][I]Gntik Littleblade
Gnomish Rogue of Ayonae Ro member of Legions of Ragnarok
[I]Kebax
Iksar Shadow knight of Tholuxe Paells member of Mark of Fire
[I][B]Krygal
Barbarian Warrior of Vallon Zek member of Shanks
[i]
EZ_Maximilean
05-10-01, 08:23 PM
I haven't yet joined a purist guild, but I agree with their position.
With a gaming system as it is, cross-teaming in many cases means immortal healing, which is a game engine flaw with the current rules. It goes beyond RP to a simple matter of gameplay. Some dwarf comes into Kelethin's bank and starts talking smack to an old elf enemy, the elf starts to kill him, and wham, every "role playing Xteamer" from here to Wakening Lands is dropping heals and buffs on the dorf and saying "feel the love, man."
Kind of takes the fun right out of having teams in the first place.
If there was hard-coded teams, crossteamers could crossteam all they liked, albeit without the ability to help each other directly.
IMO, anyone who is a big crossteaming advocate should spend a little time as a newb in the Gfay area, get a healthy distaste for the shorties
"After this thread I'm reaching this conclusion: 4-teamers get upset about cross-teamers because they have trouble separating their in-character and their out-of-character attitudes. In-character they hate "traitors to their race", and so out-of-character they have to hate the same people."
::laughs:: Ye couldn't be farther from the truth.
I think where you are going wrong is that you are putting your own translation on others' motivations -- in short you are putting words into people's mouths, even to the point of saying you understand their out of game and out of message board motivations. This is impossible because, unless you have met these people in person, your only exposure to these other players is to their in game behavior or posting behavior. To generalize that 4 team players "hate" people is quite a statement to make. Being a 4 team player myself I can tell you that I do not hate anyone out of character in the game or out of it. Hate is a strong emotion that to me does not belong in a game at all.
I attended the last Fan Faire and was quite happy to meet many folks who considered me their adversaries in game. Some even complained jokingly, "You're supposed to be mean so I can hate you". Note they were not pure team players who held this attitude... come to think of it this example shows exactly the opposite of your "conclusion". It was the cross-teamers who desired to hate me out of character whereas I was just happy to meet folks who played on Vallon.
It seems that twice now you have put words and motivations into other peoples mouths. I have yet to see any pure team player post that they "hate" people out of game, the posts I see are all made out of character and address the game or game mechanics. Perhaps you are misconstruing the fact that people debate about immortal healing or cross teaming to mean that the posters who did so "hate" these people in real life? ::shrugs::
In the example where you and halfling friend are attacked while fighting orcs. That is not a behaviour we endorse. You should never attack someone in a PvE situation. It happens by accident sometimes, and if I am guilty I back of and apoligize as soon as I know (usually recieving a-np, it happens or b-&$#!&#* ) as replies.
My thinking on the whole Pve vs PvP issue, is why go through the frustration of us Pvpers killing you if you don't want to play Pvp. If you do ensdorse Pvp, how can you not see how exploitation of the coding is a breach of fair play?
Heck I don't claim to be a expert, but you gotta step to one side or the other of the issue and either go straight blue or embrace Pvp as it is.
EZ_Karlek
05-11-01, 03:16 AM
Shamanic advice:
In the old traditions, the mind that is to receive *knowledge* is compared to a pot.
The pot has to have 4 qualities to be able to receive *knowledge* :
°has to be turned upward. (has to be willing). The *knowledge* can then be poured from above, and pot can hold it.
°should not leak. (means, can hold the *knowledge*, i.e. not forget what it read/heard)
°has to be clean. (means the stains from previous concepts can make clean new *knowledge* tainted)
°has to be empty. (i.e. recepient, and not full of something else that blocks the pouring in - i.e. divergent dogmas, etc.)
---
Frankly * 2, one can spend even 1E6 more words, but the *knowledge* can not come to your mind.
All is already written nicely to understand, so just reread when ready.
Ulthien of McKennitts'
SHANKS! Elder tribal Shaman
(reincarnated agnostic rake)[i]
EZ_Cilent
05-11-01, 04:05 AM
Really now,
Why not have cross-teaming as a roleplaying stance?
To have anti-PK guilds (ah, I remember the days before they nerfed Vallon) you must have PKers. It certainly would be pointless on a non-PvP server. To have a character like Smallberries, the Halfling with a glandular problem, (remember him, too) you have to have cohesive teams. That's what makes it fun.
Fricka, why do you insist on limiting roleplaying to just the 4-team option? I don't know how much things have changed on Vallon, but I used to hate the Shanks. Hated 'em, hated 'em. I loved hating 'em. Xenocidal Barbarians. And a great example of a role playing guild. This guild added immeasurable riches to the role playing environment on the server. But this isn't the only way.
Roleplaying, like politics, thrives on variety, and history, real life or fantasy, has always been blotted by the dark doings of turncoats and traitors.
Wotan notes the Order of the Black Rose as a fine guild also. I admire them the same way I do the Shanks. Yet this guild is cross-teaming in action. This is too much for Lisboa whose advice of "rogues of all races who want to hold hands" is to get thee to a bluebear server.
To maintain the purity of the 4-team vision, Lisboa would banish OBR. Come on.
You know who is a great role player? Lendell Deeppockets. The process was painful, but Smallberries the cross-teaming Orge finally convinced the Halflings he was a good guy in a bad guy body.
This was okay in Misty Thicket, but when Smallberries tried to enter Rivervale, Lendell Deeppockets would come flying out of the Fool's Gold and with his famous bare handed backstab -- Whap! Whap! -- drop Smallberries on the spot.
Then he'd mutter, "Cross-teaming my butt."
Way to go Lendell. Way to go Frankly.
Thanks for listening,
Cilent
EZ_Maximilean
05-11-01, 05:58 AM
It doesn't have to be a grand philosphical discussion about morals or roleplaying viability, although as it happens, I side with the purists there too. The fact is that if cross-teamers give each other any heals or buffs, there is nothing a purist on the same team can do to stop it. For example, if an ogre came to Misty to fight his archenemies in halfling guild X, and your friend started healing the halflings, the ogres can't do anything about it.
Until teams are hardcoded, cross-teaming means "immortal healing," except in strict PvE situations. And if you want strictly PvE situations...
EZ_Ceescrit da Bossalini
05-11-01, 06:39 AM
"Hehe Ceescrit flames are for the VZ board."
Oh man, I hope that you don't read my posts there... [b]Ceescrit Bossalini
Crime Boss of Vallon Zek
>Illuvitae
EZ_PoisinDaggerfist
05-11-01, 09:21 AM
After wading through all the posts, I think I should point out something that seems to be getting missed. Both sides are valid when it is looked at by fair and decent people.
But, not everyone is fair and decent and will bend any rule or technicality to suit them. You would use x-teaming to help save your friend, while an arse would use it to be invincible.
Both of you (frika/frankly) are arguing the same point... but you are adding other factors to confuse the issue like RP or looting rules.
Yes, x-teaming is a problem. But making it go away would not help the game either. From experience, you remember the bad people and stay away or load up your own second comp with a little x-team of your own
Good topic all. Poisin Daggerfist,60th Assassin- Retired
"Fricka, why do you insist on limiting roleplaying to just the 4-team option?"
I have never insisted on limiting roleplaying to just the 4-team option. Please point out where I said that. In fact I rarely touch on the topic as to me pretty much everyone can come up with a roleplay reason to do as they do. Lisboa and Frankly were the ones discussing roleplaying and initially Frankly said something about 4 team players limiting roleplaying which I refuted by saying that pure team players actually added to the roleplay options. I didn't say we replaced anything, just added to the options.
Wotan's mention of OBR as a great guild echoes my stance on roleplaying...he mentioned it because we DO NOT limit roleplaying to just the 4-team option. Simply having a roleplay stance gives a guild a point in my mind.
::chuckles:: Seems this thread is full of misunderstandings.
Ceescrit: Hehe, I may rarely post there, but every now and then I'll scan through the threads. That board is a different animal entirely...and should be.
As for the PK thing, I find the label to be rather meaningless on a server specifically earmarked for PvP". LOL Wotan, PKers ALWAYS say just exactly that. It's one of the things that seems to define a PKer.
Oh? Am I to take it that you agree then? For you are one of us you know. And of course, there is only one way to deal with PeeKayers!
After this thread I'm reaching this conclusion: 4-teamers get upset about cross-teamers because they have trouble separating their in-character and their out-of-character attitudes. In-character they hate "traitors to their race", and so out-of-character they have to hate the same people.
Frankly, you obviously formed this opinion well in advance of your post, for I've seen nothing in this thread, nor even in my experience to support it. Where is this hatred for crossteamers you fantasize about? I had the pleasure of grouping with the guildleader of <Order of the Black Rose> for the last raid I led on Faydwer. The other day I ported a <Prophet>, swapped jokes with a <Silent Soul>, and fought a pleasant battle with a <Knight of Vallon>. My favorite item, was a gift from the Leader of <Defiant> , I'm friends with the leaders of <Avant Garde>, and partied late into the night in San Diego, with the leaders of <Giliath Lang> and <Alluring Spirits>.
I'll say it yet again, though you will probably ignore it:
My disgust is for those who abuse the mechanics of immortal healing to slay members of their own team. It is a glaring flaw, in the otherwise quite enjoyable Team PvP format. It matters not to me, what excuse you fabricate for it. Call us evil "PKers", say that you are roleplaying a teamkiller, the truth is that it is a tool used to slay others with no possibility of recourse.
Immortal healing so degrades the game, to where it is no longer even a contest, in much the same way that mistating and distorting others viewpoints, degrades a conversation to the point where it is no longer an exchange of ideas.
Wotan Shaman Elder of the Shanks
It is better to have less thunder in the mouth and more lightning in the hand. - Apache ProverbEdited by: I am Wotan at: 5/11/01 1:34:32 pm
EZ_Nightshade
05-11-01, 11:55 AM
Allright, I've been reading this thread for quite some time now. And all the answers I see for peeps against x-teaming are all dealing with game mechanics. That's it. Why is everyone evading Frankly's comments on roleplaying? Team servers are great, and they are fun. I enjoy them. I enjoy my encounters with the shanks, and purist guilds. But I also enjoy long idealogical talks while having a brew with one of my sisters who happens to be a gnome. Somewhere in this thread of conversation people are getting game mechanics and roleplaying aspects mixed up. And I also know that those who are anti x-teaming will probably bash my comments to bits right here. It's allright, but the different ideals are what makes team pvp fun. Now, I personally don't x-team with darkies and such, but why is it so horrid to believe that a darkie may want to reject their dark gods and ways and seek a path through to the light. To say that every creature ever born has to be stuck to the same path in life as their forbearers is silly and inane. People change over time, and things that don't eventually stagnate and die away. I enjoy x-teaming, and the only comments that I will reply to ingame dealing with the subject are those made in character. As for those made ooc, I don't listen and I don't respond. I bought the game to roleplay...not to get a headache from arguing ooc. Tsyndria, Wood Elf scout of the Amazons, Vallon Zek"If wits were blades, you would have some very dull weapons!"--My fav insult"Shh...no fate, fate has brought you to me. And destiny, destiny will expose your hypocritical convictions. And pain, pain will be your penance. Fate, destiny, and pain."--Raven of WWF fanfaire
EZ_MajestykVZ
05-11-01, 12:57 PM
I thought I dealt with Frankly's statement on roleplaying in my initial reply.
I don't care if, anyone from any team cooperates to attain a common objective. Whether it be for RP or PG reasons, PvE or PvP.
The abuse of the server mechanics is my only issue. Casting beneficial spells on a member of your team's opponent allows you to indirectly cause damage to your own team. The teams were coded to not allow damage to be done to members of the same team.
Once again the current situation is a result of Verant's lack of forsight and focus on PvE play. However, this does not releive the individual players from any responsibility when they choose to engage in the practice. If, you can't be good. at least, be good at it.Majestyk, Rogue,Shanks,Vallon Zek!Edited by: MajestykVZ at: 5/11/01 3:37:33 pm
Why is everyone evading Frankly's comments on roleplaying?
Who's evading? If you scroll up you will see that issue addressed over and over again. Nobody here is against roleplaying, we love it! We disagree fundamentally that roleplaying racial alliances, requires you to engage in immortal teamkilling. It makes as much sense to say that roleplaying a rogue, requires one to defraud other players in transactions.
Here is a perfect counter-example: I am a healing class. I roleplay a strong desire to keep my homeland free from incursions by the lesser races. Yet, just the other day, on travelling through my ancestral hunting grounds of Blackburrow, I discovered it under assault by a large group of <Ogres fer Ogres>. Now, if they were grief players, out to simply disrupt others play, they would have brought along a high level immortal healer to neutralize any opposing force. They didn't. If I were a grief player, looking to disrupt others play, I would have followed them on their raid, using my immortal healing to neutralize their entire raid force. Quite frankly, that would ruin the fun for them, for those opposing them, and would offer me no sport.
It betrays a lack of imagination, or sincerity, to say that one cannot roleplay an alliance with another team, without abusing the game mechanics to slay ones own team. I certainly have no problem roleplaying disdain for racetraitors, without the ability to attack them directly. In fact, I see no reason why one could not roleplay a racial alliance, on a server with hard-coded restrictions on xteam healing.
I have time and time again, listened to testimonials from players currently playing crossteam, who genuinely desire to play Team PvP, but were forced to crossteam, to cope with immortal healing. These players, some of them guildleaders of prominent crossteam guilds, would love the chance to play on a server, where playing Team PvP was not the uphill struggle against immortal tactics the Shanks have persevered through. I'll try saying this one more time:
I have no problem with those who roleplay racial alliances. I do have a problem with those who use immortal tactics in an attempt to make it impossible to engage in Team-PvP or roleplay racial conflict.
Wotan Shaman Elder of the Shanks
It is better to have less thunder in the mouth and more lightning in the hand. - Apache ProverbEdited by: I am Wotan at: 5/11/01 3:16:56 pm
/agree Majestyk.
The roleplaying topic is agreed upon by all sides (Lisboa made some points about it) but basically that is a dead issue since everyone agrees that you can roleplay whatever way you want. I don't see how that is evading it. I stated pretty clearly that I think anyone can come up with a roleplay reason to do what they do.
::shrugs::
To mangle a certain Princess Bride line: "...never engage in a land war in Asia, never make death bets with a Sicilian" and never argue a roleplayer's point of view". to do so just leads us to the endless circular arguements that we've already seen in the Safehouse about roleplaying.
EZ_MajestykVZ
05-11-01, 01:47 PM
Let me add one more item.
If, you are going to heal/buff a team mate's opponent, then at least /d your team mate first. Give up your immunity from attack. If you are actually "Role Playing" then, you should want to be able to hit that "Evil" team mate, who is attacking your friend.
EZ_Nightshade
05-12-01, 02:23 AM
Allright, the last few points I read did clear up your views a bit in my eyes. Thanks for doing it in a non bashing manner that I've seen all too often)
I do agree that the immortal healing issue is an annoying one, and even though I do xteam, I don't condone immortal healers and the like. My guild doesn't condone it either, though we were accussed of it on the eq vault(which had no grounds or facts to back it up).
I will say that my next char on pvp will probably be a purist so I can see both aspects of it. Any room in the Shanks for a barbarian shaman? That's one of the few purist guilds I would consider joining.
Anyhow, time to go off to la-la land and sing the Happy happy, joy joy song)*Stimpy, you eeeediot!!!* Tsyndria, Wood Elf scout of the Amazons, Vallon Zek"If wits were blades, you would have some very dull weapons!"--My fav insult"Shh...no fate, fate has brought you to me. And destiny, destiny will expose your hypocritical convictions. And pain, pain will be your penance. Fate, destiny, and pain."--Raven of WWF fanfaire
Having had the opportunity to see how VZ was a year ago, then getting caught up in life and coming back a year back, I can say that 1) Item Loot removal has increased twinking to a absurd degree-a topic for another topic and 2) The increase in Purist guilds has made the server a much more dynamic and exciting place. Heck I log when I gotta go if you know what I mean, lest I come back and find myself sprawled across the landscape.
EZ_Mordier
05-12-01, 03:13 PM
I'll make this short.
We're not arguing about RPing b/c we have no problem with roleplaying. It's actually something I think we respect the most in this game. I have NO PROBLEM with people of different teams joining the same guild, or hunting together. My problem is with the game mechanics.
Immortal healing is cheap. Vallon is a team server, and as it's set up people have no way to battle immortal healing (especially if they're in a pure TEAM guild). Rallos is the place to go if you want to fully "X-Team".
Hah, Rallos is the place to go if you wanna end up naked and chained in the galley of a slaver ship. Like I've said elswhere, Rallos Zek people are very crazy, and very brave, and have hidden streaks of masochistic martyrdom.
EZ_Frankly
05-13-01, 07:57 PM
Crazy and brave it you're a melee or cleric, for sure. But you can be there and be neither...mages and necros can level to 50 wearing just some spider silks.
EZ_Nadarae
05-14-01, 06:12 AM
hmm interresting. So it should not be possible to buff and heal someone from the other teams ?
How will elves and shorties kill uber mobs ? No shamans for buffs and debuffs.
It's not that I disagree with the idea, but the current game mechanics are just ruining the idea of four teams that never aid one another. Light vs. Dark might as well be called crossteamers vs. inkies.
In the end I would love a light vs. dark type of combat, but it really breaks down in the end. All the bitching is not due to what players do, but due to the basic lack of proper game mechanics.
Imo, the problem with EQ is simple. It is based on the concept of competition to gain wealth. Wealth is measured in level, equipment and pp. Weath is eventually a function of PvE power of your guild. PvP has no affect on wealth. Guild power is highly affected on the access to certain classes.
A guild needs,
clerics, warriors, rogues, enchanters : sure all teams have that
trackers : uh oh, poor inkies
shamen : shorties and elves out of luck
necromancer : again elves out of luck
monks : pook shorties and elves
So in the end you can stick to the teams and accept that there are some encounters where you will be severely impeded in your ability to overcome it, or ....
Not saying that I like the obvious conclusion, but I can't see how you can say it is an exploit of the game mechanics.
If you are in an elven only guild at level 60, I congratulate you for being completely hooked on roleplaying. Personally I would feel very very miserable.
I know that they like to flame and stuff. But ALL the top guilds have been crossteaming on at least on of their raids. Defiants and XK have raided together just to mention one combo.
When all this is said, boy do I miss a more entertaining context than get phat lewt and kill your enemies. But that is what EQ is about imo, sadly.
Shhh, just throw me a heal.
Nadarae Iluviel
52th Priestess of Tunare
Pinhk Rehnegade
47th Songbird of Tunare
Enidaye
21st rank Defiler
Nadarae, the game mechanics abuse comes in when cross teaming is used against players NOT mobs.
On another note. My guild is comprised of only 3 classes yet we are doing quite well as we have allies with rest of the rest of the human team.
If we choose to I can see the planes quite within our reach. Of course we are the human team and gifted with all the classes available. I still think seeing how far one can go with just 3 classes (we did not always have allies) is proof that ye can indeed do much there is to do in the game in terms of PvE.
Added:
An all elf group did Hate on Vallon! Huzzah!
Fricka of the Vallon Zek Shanks
Safehouse Ring Warden
Rogue Class member of Midgard, Dark Age of Camelot Beta 3
Fricka curtsies elegantly...while picking your pocket.
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