View Full Version : Underestimated rogues
05-24-01, 08:05 PM
Ok, I'll start off with a direct quote I heard in EC. "Rogues really stink in a duel. They rely completely on backstab so if you take that away from them they are whooped." This was stated after a friendly duel with my friend Troll SK, whom I got down to 60 health and I at 225, when he whips out a 219 HT. I'm suprised it was only that much considering he's level 32. I thought it would be 320. Well, gotta hand it to my resist gear yet again. (Dwarven ringmail at 30 baby! and I love it!)
Anywho, this level 50 pally proceeds to state the forementioned quote. I would have challenged him to a duel if he wasn't 20 levels above me. I did duel a pally 8 levels above me and won, but she didn't use an LoH so I'm not sure if it was fair and square. Wandered off subject again. Anyways I definitely DO NOT rely on my backstabs. In my main I have a BR cause I really, really love that extremely low delay, and in off hand I have my SBD. I know, I know, use the lowest delay in offhand, but I've compared logs and I seem to be doing more damage with the BR in mainhand plus I love seeing the screen fill with yellow and it looks really odd wielding a large metal weapon in your non profficient hand and a little piece of bone in your strongest hand. I just love the look of BR in main and a little dagger in offhand.
Dang, wandered off again. I have a two sets of armor for some slots. One for pure melee that adds agi and ac, and one for anyone who can cast which consists of a lot of resists. I use the resist one much more often and it doesn't leave much weight for loot with a Mith BP in my backpack (brand spankin new! made 1k profit in the last 2 weeks off of small wisdom deities. My level 27 friend made a profit of 5k in the last month and got himself a trak tooth, DANG!!! I wandered off again!) but it seems to work.
Because the BR doesn't do an incredible amount of damage and lowers BSes, people think I am weak. Hehe. Far from it. It's like that old saying on how to boil a frog alive. You put it in hot water and it'll jump out, but if you put it in cold water and slowly bring it to a boil, he's toast. They scoff at the beginning when they see me poking at them for around 18dmg, but that smile fades when they all of a sudden realize they are at 1/3 health and I'm at 2/3. It's incredibly roguish to me. Much more subtle than a huge harpoon bein thrust through your back. This is why that pally believed we rely completely on Backstabs. Nearly every rogue believes that they need to get one of those fancy harpoons when they get around my level and they trade low delay for visible damage.
Now to wrap up this meandering thread, I'm gonna state the two classes I fear most, in increasing order. SK then Bard. Although I rarely duel bards. Never find too many bard jerks myself that are past level 20. Too challenging and rewards knowing your class, not for twinks. So when you do face a bard around level 30, be afraid, be very afraid.
Pedric Cuf, Halfling spy, err historian of the 30th keg, proud resident of Xev
"Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup."
"I am not a crook"
EDIT: I couldn't think of the right word, and the second after I posted it I did! Edited by: Pedric Cuf at: 5/24/01 10:07:19 pm
Um to say that rogue's suck in duels without backstab is like saying rogue's suck in PvE without backstab -- both of which are true, but are assanine statements. That is like saying wizards suck in duels without their DD's, or mages/necro's suck in duels without their pets, or bards suck in duels without their songs, etc. Though they are all true, they are rather moronic statements. No idiot is going to duel and bypass his skills, ESPECIALLY his <u>primary[/i] offensive skill.
"Its not that I dont think you have the guts to come to rallos, I
just want you to come so I can kick yer arse is all."-Diabalein Avidya
Well, I dont know. It isnt totally accurate.
I can destroy an SK, even one that believes he can stay out of backstab danger. We have better avoidance, and better offense toe to toe. Let alone we have real disciplines, where they will undoubtedly rely on HT discipline to kick in for damage.
However, in the example given, you say he finishes you off with a HT. So he told you that you cant backstab, but then he felt perfectly happy with HTing you?
Now that is moronic.
In my opinion you ought to factor in every possible ounce of skill there, including spells, skills, poisons, whatever applies to that class.
I kinda chuckle at HT. It's got a 4 hour recyle, when backstab is 10 seconds (without haste!)... yet I can do 50%+ the damage of a harm touch with a backstab ;p
05-24-01, 09:49 PM
first off, HT is reduced to 60% of actual dammage v players, so your resist gear didnt have that much to do with it. the PvE formula is (10xlevel)+1.
Lirin AzamiaReaper of Tunarewww.ClanofNobles.com
05-24-01, 10:44 PM
any halfway decent shadowknight will stomp a rogue into the ground even without HT.
I mean come on they have all the right stuff for pvp:
1. Lifetaps. A level 60 shadowknight can kill a level 60 wizard by just sitting there and casting his drain spells vs a level 60 wizard sitting there nuking. A shadowknight and wizard on Rallos tried it. Don't think the wizard sucked either. He is one of the oldest players on the rallos zek server and pvps a ton.
2. Jousting weapon. If they have their epic, they will be double attacking you for 200 a pop. It also procs that lifedrain dot a ton. Even if they don't have their epic, they have a slew of high damage weapons to choose from. Your small chance of getting that jousting backstab in will not outweigh the big hits you take from those high damage weapons.
3. Shadowstep. If for some reason they miss a ton and need to get away to med, rebuff, etc.
4. Damage absorption spell.
5. A couple of dots, one of which does around 200 in pvp which isn't insignificant considering they can cast it a ton if they have to (most don't).
6. Harmtouch. The big daddy of pvp. It recycles every 90 minutes, not every 4 hours. With their high level discipline, I don't know the exact number but I want to say it does around 800 damage to a pc.
7. Hitpoints. Again not sure on exact numbers but I'd say a high 50s sk would have around 2500 hps with halfway decent gear. Add to this the 235ish they get every 2 minutes from casting lifeleech on you a minimum of 4 times.
These things do not paint a pretty picture for the adversary and are why most consider shadowknights to be one of the best pvping classes.
Disciplines are only good versus the unsuspecting. Any decent pvper will just keep out of range for 10-15 seconds once they see you use a discipline. Your poison isn't going to work at 55 they get a pr buff similar to dead man floating. If you dispell it, they can just shadowstep and recast.
You may (don't think you would though) kill a shadowknight if the space was very small eliminating their ability to shadowstep.
As a level 59 rogue on Rallos, a shadowknight is one of the last people with which I choose to tangle. Edited by: Gaaryn at: 5/25/01 12:45:55 am
Believe whatever you want.
True, I am not 59 yet. But then again instead of hiding in a dungeon like I used to do, I have spent the last 3 months out pvping at every possible moment. No, I dont mean playing around with friends either.
A discipline only has to surprise them for a moment, as one round at 60 (the level you seem to focus on) is enough to completely cripple even a melee class. I would also love to see a shadowknight shadowstep away. I would be laughing for hours and they would never hear the end of it. They would also not get a second chance. I would heal up to full and continue with my day. Why waste time chasing someone who is afraid to fight?
Ah do you work at Verant, the only thing you focused on was post-50?
I am joking, but seriously, you can't only think that people are going to PvP from ONLY levels 50 - 60, and then tabulate having their epics into the formula. Edited by: Kambic at: 5/25/01 9:03:27 am
05-25-01, 07:23 AM
as a *coughDRUIDcough* i stood toe to toe with an SK the other night that was seven levels below me =) Lirin AzamiaReaper of Tunarewww.ClanofNobles.com
05-25-01, 07:40 AM
I suppose I should have made it a bit clearer that it was directed towards Legna who is 55+.
Legna...shadowstepping, jousting, running, etc are all a part of fighting a pvp fight. If you are saying you can beat a shadowknight that isn't moving, I'd probably agree even though I think it would be pretty close if they used lifeleech and harm touch.
This pretty much sums it up forums.interealms.com/shadowknight/showthread.php?s=6e6eb780d9ba8e23f6708be9362601e7& threadid=8700 Assume as a well-equipped 60 rogue you have 2200hps. Three Boil bloods take off 950ish (max pve damage for BB is 504). Three lifeleechs take off 700ish. Harm touch is 800. At 55, they get 230 melee damage absorption shield. They don't even have to melee you.../shiver
Well, I didn't mean to rehash the argument since it's obvious we disagree. Just thought you might want to read some shadowknight viewpoints;p
05-25-01, 07:46 AM
and ill bring up the all powerfull PUMICE STONE which is all anybody ever seems to think about when a topic with winged death or splurt comes up =P Lirin AzamiaReaper of Tunarewww.ClanofNobles.com
05-25-01, 08:27 AM
Every class can beat every class - anyone who says different is an idiot. The classes seem to be very balanced in pvp. Cylant Butdeadly
05-25-01, 08:53 AM
Cause instant cast ones are a pretty valuable commodity unless you are plan on spending a ton of time farming in CT. I wouldn't waste them on a 300ish damage spell. I'd be saving them for winged deaths, splurts, ignite bloods, etc.
If you are talking about the new pumice, any smart sk would be looking for that if their plan is to use boil blood (Note: I don't think most sks rely on this strategy but it is a feasible one). Can you say hello to about 300 melee damage while you are in the middle of that long arse casting time.
Cylant, while I'm not sure how long you have been playing on the pvp server or how much you pvp, after over 200 played days on Rallos (52 necro, 53 sk, 59 rogue, and a slew of other characters of lower levels) I can assure you that the classes are not and will never be balanced. That said the classes are waaaay more balanced than when EQ went live in Mar '99 but still some classes shine when it comes to pvping, pking, and/or dueling. Each class has advantages based on where the fight takes place, what particular level the parties are, ease of acquiring epic, etc. Of course every class can beat any other class given the right location, preparation of the combatants, etc...but to say that if you took equally skilled players and fought class vs class you would end up with anything close to a 50/50 split would just not happen (or at least that's the way I'd bet).
I hate to break out the 'I have played more than you so I know more argument' but you did call me an idiot;p I really don't see how you can comment on high level pvp at 46...Have you looked at the shadowknight, shaman, necromancer spell list post 50? There is a reason why they are feared... Edited by: Gaaryn at: 5/25/01 11:02:58 am
05-28-01, 12:32 PM
I have played five classes on pvp servers to my 30s and 40s and I can say with all honesty that not all classes were created equal.
Does this mean that you can't be an effective pvper with almost any class? No not at all. My cleric, 41st level, can stand toe to toe with any caster, wisdom or int based. One on one I can outheal and outmelee another caster (though necros with pets can be very tough). However I have absolutely NO chance to kill a melee class. My spells are all magic based so even the slightest magic resistance makes thier effects laughable. Even at base magic resistance I don't have the mana to kill a melee. I have tried meleeing them and using mana to heal and I have tried my direct damage... A monk at half health and near base magic resistance ran me out of mana (I rooted and direct damaged him) and I had to continue to root and med a bit more until he was dead. Now imagine me against a warrior with ever increasing magic resistance... with each level the disparity continues and I have absolutely no chance to kill a melee.
As for Shadowknights:
An intelligent Shadowknight should be able to beat a rogue by jousting them. Use a really high damage two hander and charge, swing and continue running. As an ogre shadowknight I use a weighted axe against melees... it cost me 20 plat but it has a damage of 45! I just swing it and with a double attack I can do up to 400 dmg (up to 200 a swing) in one charge. What will a rogue do? a couple slashes as I run by with two 10-13 dmg weapons?
If I make a pet (like a dot but can also bash which is huge!), use harm touch, use lifetaps, use QUICK dots like disease cloud and even shadowstep when needed then I doubt any rogue can kill me. Shadowstep can be used for escape but more importantly it can be used for maneuvering... it is a bit "cheap" but a dual weilding rogue will interrupt me over and over if I try to lifetap. If I shadowstep a bit away and cast I can usually get the spell off... Legna may laugh but it's VERY effective to use this for maneuvering.
Orec is a rogue and I am determined to be a skilled pvp'er with him and help to gain some respect for this class so don't think I can't see the power of a rogue. I think a well played rogue has a chance to kill anyone... but a well played SK will beat a well played rogue in a fair fight in my opinion.
05-28-01, 06:53 PM
SK's are hands down the last class a rogue wants to fight with. Unless you catch the SK OOM with no harmtouch and get in some nice doubles your going to get beat. This is of course assuming the SK is a semi competent PVP'r. Gaaryn is correct in his evaluation of SK vs Rogue battles. Shadowknights got the perfect blend to pvp. They got the taps that heal and the HP to withstand an assault. They got the damage shileds also that will chew a rogue up. SK's are about the only class I wont fight 1 on 1.
Also, alot of you are forgetting that certain classes peak much sooner than others. For instance a cleric is extremely hard to kill but is no threat offensively. Shamans are not much of a worry in the early levels but once they get 49 they can put an insane hurt on you. Necros are dangerous through all the levels, especially once they get touch of night and deflux. Wizards are dangerous at all levels. DRuids start slow but pick up speed at midlevels and stay strong to 60, the new heals made them very hard to kill. Mages peak very late in the game, around 44 their pets start being more effective in pvp against us rogues. Chanters peak late and once they get that unresistable mes you better watch out. Warriors/rogue/monks are very effective at all levels with some of the new weaponry around. Pallys are diehards, dont put out much damage but take a long time to kill. Sk's peak VERY late in the game but once they peak I dont think there is anyone who would dispute that they are the kings of pvp in the high end pvp game.
EDIT: I am referring to rogue vs SK battles when the SK is 55+.
Gsam / Tiig Edited by: Gsam at: 5/28/01 9:00:26 pm
05-29-01, 01:41 PM
I'm 51 and I whooped a 52 SK Saturday night. The SK HT'd out the gate and was at full mana. I had to play sneaky and S/H a few times to apply several poisons. Whoever said that Rogues have to fight fair?? It was quite close I must say. Morticus Belaern
Assassin of the Ebon Mask
"JAL KHALESS ZHAH WAELA "
Royal Teir'dal Officer of Qu'ellar Belaern
05-29-01, 03:02 PM
I beleive that it is possible to win. But take that battle you just had with the SK, and you would of been dead had he been 55+ cause the harmtouch would of done 2x the damage it did.
05-29-01, 04:17 PM
Clerics might be the acception to my argument - but what i meant to say was that it really depends on the person behind the charachter.. the location.. the circumstatnces.. and the preparedness of the charachter. There is no way to set up a control to test the 50/50 hypothesis - but if there was, i would imagine not all classes would be completely equal, but they would be darn close. After dealing with the constant debates in the various newbie zones about what is the best PvP class i'm sick of hearing it.
There really is no best class. Pick one you enjoy playing - learn how to play it effectively and keep going. You'll learn new tricks as you go. Oh.. and on the harmtouch issue.. i never duel a shadow knight with harmtouch up. When i duel shadow knights - i do fine. When a shadow knight trys to pk me - it's laughable. If i'm not completely prepared to kill them i just leave, and they can't do a damn thing about it.