View Full Version : Terrorists strike Madrid-over 170 dead.
More to come. No claims by ETA as of yet.
Mostly same AP wire story.
If we got any Safehousers in the area, my best wishes for you and yours. Edited by: MARBH at: 3/11/04 8:13 am
I have a trade show in Barcelona this summer too. @#%$ @#%$ @#%$!
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03-11-04, 08:28 AM
but a senior U.S. intelligence source told NBC News that that conclusion might be wrong and that the CIA was looking for any connection to the al-Qaida terrorist network.
No, no. Your inteligence is wrong, we will tell you what happened to your country. It was those damn al-Qaida again.
Actually I wouldn't be suprised if it was, considering how much in lockstep with Bush the Spanish government has been. Osama might want to put pressure on the Spaniards to reduce their foreign commitments.
If it is the ETA, expect a hell of a backlash, much like the IRA saw when they stepped up their bombings and hit civilians targets hard.
03-11-04, 08:38 AM
ETA has been trying to use plant bombs on the Madrid train system for months - been a number of failed attempts. Damn good assumption to make given the facts so far that it was them.
Heart goes out to anyone involved in this. Gotta admit I didn't realise how active the Basque Sepratists (sp?) still were.
I agree Marbh. Spanish companies have been winning a lion's share of bids in US Defense contracts. A competitor of my company has had 2 major bids swept away from them. Spain is linked to us now, whether they wanted that stigma or not.
And it would not surprise me in the least if a newfound coalition exists between Al-Queda and the ETA.
What? A link between a terrorist group that wants to kill innocent civilians, and another terrorist group that wants to kill innocent civilians?
That's preposterous! <hr><center><a href=http://trojanhorseshoes.blogfodder.net/>Trojan Horseshoes</a><BR><a href=http://www.tower.org/insult/conservative.html>Need Help coming up with arguments against mine?</a></center>
Actually I think it will be either ETA or Al-Queda. The Basques have had links in the past to the IRA, Red Army ect, but I don't think they would be willing to bargain with Al-Queda. Of course I also never imagined they would do something this big and risk drawing down so much heat.
03-11-04, 08:54 AM
Loonies with zealot like political/religious/etc beliefs can make the oddest stablemates. If ETA were getting support from Al-Queda then they are both getting thier objectives done. ETA want to kill lots of Spanish civilians, Al-Queda wants to kill lots of Western civilians. (ok, ok, I know that's their means and not their goal, but you get the idea)
This is big for ETA, granted (I think they've only been directly attributed with about 800-900 deaths in the last 40 years or so), but that doesn't mean they didn't do it, and do it on thier own.
Yeah, its up in the air of who did what and with or without whom. More I read, the more I'm leaning to ETA. Arrests in Feb caught ETA with 1000lbs of explosives in Madrid area.
03-11-04, 09:36 AM
If a-Q were going to hit a European target they'd hit France or the UK. Both have done far, far more to antagonize the muslim community than Spain has. Definitely the ETA.
03-11-04, 09:36 AM
Has the ETA ever pulled off anything this big before? Most of the attacks I recall are car bombs and drive-by shootings.
A step up from small attacks to a large, highly visible attack might indicate some influence from al-Queda, which has made large terrorist attacks their signature. There may not necessarily be a direct correlation between the two organizations, but the ETA could still be emulating al-Queda.
*edit* Ok after reading the story, I can see that this is by far the biggest thing they have done. Spain could be in for some rough times if this is the ETA's new strategy. Edited by: Hodurbear at: 3/11/04 9:49 am
03-11-04, 09:53 AM
Might as well assume it's an IRA link from that logic. Bomb in train station - all the hallmarks! And both Marxist organisations!
Granted, previously they did targetted killings rather than mass bombings ... but that doesn't mean they used to be lead by Ariel Sharron, and now Osama Bin Laden.
There's some legitimacy attached to the IRA though.
Nocte what trade show are you attending?
I will be in Barcelona for Intels IDF in the 3rd week of April.
Just double checked, actually it's Vallencia in July.
International Planetarium Convention
If you want to know some good places to tourist in Barcelona, let me know, I work with a native.
As far as who and what is involved, we got no idea, but based on regional history, the ETA is gonna be involved in some way unless its a total shocker.
And as far as the IRA gos, you can love the cause and hate the organization. The old IRA didn't hit civilian targets, the modern IRA (the Provisional IRA) does, so I got nothing but contempt for them.
Terrorism is a tricky business, you can see many examples of terrorists or criminals ending up heads of state (Eamon De Valera, Yitzhak Shamir, Gandhi, Mandela, Adams, Jefferson, et al). Personally, I would like to see the ETA pursue a path more like the recent Good Friday accords.
The Basque province already has a great deal of independence and Spain officially recognizes their language. There isn't a recent history of oppression or martial law. Why they want to go to such lengths to become an impoverished independent state is really baffling.
Quote:Why they want to go to such lengths to become an impoverished independent state is really baffling.
Same could be said for Greenland or the Faeronese, yet many in both countries want them to become independent nations. As I understand it the Basques, in particular their language, is quite different from the rest of Spain, so I can see how they'd want to keep some of their unique traits.
Terrorism is unacceptable though and the ETA has been getting more hostile and hitting more civilians in the last few years. We get more news here from the rest of Europe than I imagine you would in the States so yes, it has been noticed here that they've become more active in bombings and murders.
Now personally I think the IRA are pieces of @#%$, as are their opposite number (yes, there's terrorists on both sides). Ever notice how often after violent freedom fighters win their goal they become nothing more than organized criminals? So I really can't say I'd love to see all the bombing maniacs with an ideal out there attain their goals. Like with some of the people fighting against Apartheid in South Africa, after they succeeded some of the resistant movements - having nothing left to fight - turned to crime. Maybe I'm off here but it seems like a lot of the time the people who become terrorists to save some important ideal can't live peacefully after their goal is attained. It's just one of those things I keep wondering about. The people who seek take power by terrorizing others rarely seem capable of handling it once they have it, or letting go and letting democratic governments of their new state take charge. Just thinking outloud here, I sometimes like to run through cliches in history and see how accurate they are.
03-11-04, 02:47 PM
My heart goes out to all of those affected, but this really pissed me off. Several of my friends were supposed to go for spring break to Spain next week on a school trip, and now lost the $2400 and the trip because of this. :">
03-11-04, 05:08 PM
Quote:There's some legitimacy attached to the IRA though.
Yes, I suppose if we accept it's acceptable to kill people in order to push forward a politcal agenda that is unwanted by the majority of the population than it is legitimate.
And good point. whoever it was, about the paramilitaries on both sides.
Anyway, sorry to derail this somewhat from what is the main issue. I'm sure we all condemn this attack in Madrid whatever our views on the political issues.
03-11-04, 06:54 PM
This says...Arabic Newspaper Receives Al-Qaida Claim Of Responsibility
/boggle all you want.
Remarkably Haitian rebels are heroes.
Nelson Mandella is a revered "peacemaker."
Yet the Northern Irish and West Bank Palestinians are persecuted daily for their religious beliefs. I've been to Northern Ireland. It's not all tea and crumpets. It's a police state full of anti-Catholic sentiment.
The foundatiuon of the IRA goes beyond "unionist" ideals and much of the fight has gone toward the more diplomatic Sinn Fein. That's cool, I don't condone the violence, yet I do empathise with the struggle. The loyalists are far from guiltless.
I agree though, let's not distract further from Madrid. It's a tragic day indeed.
03-11-04, 09:04 PM
ETA's biggest hit so far was at a 'mere' 21 deaths. The scale of this bombing along the specific purpose of mass murdering seems not in line with ETA operations (they always warned about the bombs as to minimize civilian casualties). However it is known ETA has been after spanish train net for quite a while and recently several operatives were captured along huge stocks of explosives on their way to Madrid.
Policement speculate the purpose of the terrorists was to coordinate the explosions so they would have taken place when the trains would all be on Atocha station which would have crumbled the whole building on rush hour.
Unfortunately Government and political parties are spreading confusion about the bombing at the moment. Whether it's been ETA or muslim terrorist will probably shift this sunday's voting (government was heavily por Irak war, opposition against).
Smoking, are you in Spain? I wonder if the incumbents have an incentive to say it was the ETA, because that is more likely to get them reelected, whereas if it were Al Qaeda it would hurt their chances of staying in power. They were very quick to put the blame on the ETA. Though the timing fits the national terrorist more than the international one, since it was the day before the election. Edited by: Lisboa at: 3/11/04 10:19 pm
Most news stories I've read tend to indicate this attack will help the current incumbents, rather than hurt them politically speaking.
Also, a Stolen Van was recently found in Madrid with detonators, and a cassete tape with recorded Koranic Verses in it. Hmmm... I wonder who might be listening to that.
Edit: It also ocurred exactly 911 days since 9/11/01. I'm thinking thats a bit to strange to be coincidence. (Albeit, it could be some other group doing that to frame Al Qaeda, as could the cassette, but i'm pretty certain that its not coincidence.) Edited by: Meddik at: 3/12/04 9:59 am
03-12-04, 01:22 PM
Quote:recorded Koranic Verses
wow teh best evidence in the world , i hope its not like the airplane arabic guide they said they found