Fantastic read: The new Pentagon papers

[Krimzan]

Article is too long to paste, this is the URL
www.salon.com/opinion/fea...sp_moveon/

Quite an amazing read.

[EZ_Emmrys]

Thanks for that.

[EZ_Ten Evenings]

Wow. Imperialism is still alive and kicking, it seems. Lying hasnt gone out of style, either.

[Nocte]

It's only lying when your party isn't in the White House

Democrats "Lies!" = Republicans "Spin!"
Republicans "Lies!" = Democrats "Spin!"

It was a good article though. I wish the West Wing staff were in power. (Not that asshat Martin Sheen either, his character Bartlett).

[EZ_Ten Evenings]

Like, I said, lying will never go out of style. Certain things are spin, and certain things are lies.

Democrats lie, Republicans lie. But this administration has really topped off, imo.

[EZ_MorrellVZ]

Yeah, I'm so glad Bush brought integrity back to the White House, like he said he would.

[Darkefang]

Ok, that story could have been about any administration since Woodrow Wilson. There is always bias in how intelligence is gathered and presented. The smart presidents know how to filter through the BS and get to the reality. The other presidents end up taking questionable actions.

[EZ_Grendl Nighthunter]

It is a sad day when a good man like Bill Clinton is ousted from the Whitehouse, to be replaced by an immoral ingrate like GWB.

/sarcasm off Grendl Nighthunter[/b]First Rank AssassinMember : Legacy of the CompanionsBristlebane Server

[EZ_joekreeper1]

Hi, I'm a disgruntled ex USAF officer that recieved an assignment I didn't want so here is the evil plot I uncovered.....

/axegrinding on

so see? the Neocons are out to rule the world.. oh yeah and I like Palestine....

edit: what the heck is a neoconservative? Edited by: joekreeper1 at: 3/12/04 7:55 am

[EZ_Emmrys]

Apparently it depends entirely on who you ask. I think it's just a buzzword, a fad lately, but here's the best thing I've found so far on it. Granted I found it on a liberal web site, but hey:

Link

Quote:What Exactly Is A Neoconservative?

Is there one single definition for the word "neoconservative"? The term has exploded in usage lately. I think we can generally agree on who the neocon ringleaders are, but I've noticed a couple of different usages, and would like to know if anyone could correct me on any of them.

The only formal definition of "neoconservative" I've read was in a Salon article by Michael Lind in April: "They are called 'neoconservatives' because many of them started off as anti-Stalinist leftists or liberals before moving to the far right." He then goes on to trace a rather specific path of development from Trotskyism in the '30s through "anti-communist liberalism" and all the way to a right-wing "Wilsonianism" with flavors of Trotsky and the Likud Party. Is this really where the term got its start? Does anyone have this usage in mind when they use the term?

I recently listened to the audiobook version of "What Liberal Media?" by Eric Alterman. His usage of "neoconservative" seems to be similar to Lind's, without the narrow historical specifics. By my understanding, Alterman uses the word to refer to journalists and cultural critics who used to be left of center, but who have jumped on the liberal-bashing media bandwagon, and can be "hard" or "soft" neoconservative depending on their level of zeal. By this definition, I guess that Dennis Miller would fit the bill of late.

But the way "neoconservative" is used lately usually seems to be in relation to the term that David Frum recently coined: "paleoconservative". In this popular usage, "neoconservative" refers to the extremist right-wing ideology of the current Republican leadership which, though it sprung out of the conservative movement, isn't conservative at all in any traditional sense (in that radicalism is, by definition, not conservative). This definition seems to be the dominant one. Does anyone check to see whether or not a Republican extremist once had liberal or leftist credentials before refering to him as a neoconservative?

I just hate to misuse words out of ignorance. If anyone's got any insights on this subject, I'd appreciate the info. Thanks.

[Meddik]

Neoconservatives Explained

Edit: A slightly more concise explanation, albeit I don't think its quite as accurate. Edited by: Meddik at: 3/12/04 9:03 am

[EZ_joekreeper1]

aaaahhhhhhh OK so that explains the author's love of palestine and hate of the "neocons" she's an anti semite

"I'm going to torment you until you're translucent!!!"

[EZ_Emmrys]

shakes his head

[Zeno]

... although her last name sounds remarkably "Jewish"

[Marbh]

Polish actually.

[shehab aldean]

Quote:aaaahhhhhhh OK so that explains the author's love of palestine and hate of the "neocons" she's an anti semite


sorry you can't have the 2 thing togther

[EZ_joekreeper1]

I know I know, all the people from the region are Semtic people, but antisemite is a catch phrase for anti Isreal/Jew

"I'm going to torment you until you're translucent!!!"

[Marbh]

Never let the facts get in the way of a good obfuscation.

[Yalum]

So neoconservatives are borrow-and-spend ultranationalists with close ties to the theocrats.

I can't imagine why anyone considers this movement at all dangerous or scary.

[EZ_Emmrys]

If this movement is what's influencing Bush and his policy, both domestic and foreign, then it scares me.

[Marbh]

Let's throw another whistle blower into the mix. And this guy is just concerned with Medicare.

news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=..._2004mar12

[Krimzan]

One can only hope this trend continues. Personally, I'd like to see Powell step up to the plate and come clean next, but who knows how long that will take.

[EZ_joekreeper1]

other than the tax cut and foreign policy I find Bush to be as liberal if not MORE than Clinton was.... but I guess I'll voting for the evil of 2 lessers again GO BUSH :/

[Darkefang]

Thank You!!

I've finally got someone else on the "Bush is a flaming Liberal" bandwagon.

[EZ_joekreeper1]

I wouldn't say FLAMING, Nader is a flaming liberal, Bush is more of smoldering liberal.