View Full Version : How long until the fireworks will begin in Israel?
ShadowCross
03-22-04, 12:16 AM
www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/me...index.html
My guess: less than 48 hours until Israel sees the worst series of terroristic acts that it has ever witnessed.
I fail to understand how Scharon could do something stupid like this - creating a martyr for the Hammas. ShadowCross Bladesong
Assistant Administrator of the Safehouse
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shehab aldean
03-22-04, 01:10 AM
IBL
ShadowCross
03-22-04, 01:13 AM
Why should this topic get locked?
I'm serious.. I am shocked by the news, concerned about the implications and the events we might see the next days.
I want to talk about it...
EZ_Zulian
03-22-04, 01:14 AM
Come on SX, it's Shehab, what were you expecting? :P
"Those dirty arabs are gonna kill some folk now!!11!!"?
EZ_Ten Evenings
03-22-04, 01:42 AM
Yeah, the IDF is gonna regret that'n.
Quote:How long until the fireworks will begin in Israel?
Begin?
Begin?
WTF do you call the terrorist attacks that have been going on over there day in and day out for years?
Oh No, by fighting back against the terrorist trying to kill them, Israel may make them mad! Heavens, we can't have that!
On a lighter note... Anyone notice this?
Trojan Horseshoes
Need Help coming up with arguments against mine?
EZ_BD Nightfall
03-22-04, 05:15 AM
Lol.
I also found this amusing.
Quote:"We condemn the assassination of Sheikh Ahmed Yassin," the Palestinian Authority said in a statement. "It is a crime. It's a cowardly act. It shows that Israel has chosen the path of more violence and further escalation."
Wow...
EZ_Ten Evenings
03-22-04, 05:36 AM
Meddik, BD, everyone has to remember, if the Norwegians or Burmese or Janists decided that, according to their book, Georgia or whatever was their holy land and they have a God Given Right to claim it and move on in, and you lived there first, youd be fighting them too. I know I would.
Its not good guys vs. terrorists. Its one faction with interests and reasons against another faction with interests and reasons, and the only people who are really suffering under this war is the average, non violent Palestinian.
EZ_Emmrys
03-22-04, 05:44 AM
...and the average non-violent Israeli...
Jhani Vandolay
03-22-04, 05:55 AM
Reading the entire story helps, sometimes.
Capturing someone, releasing them in a mutually agreed contract, then killing them later is not quite as admirable as the fighting back vs the vile terrorists what attack you day and nightly image being painted over it. They already had him and could have dealt with him straightforwardly. Even since release, they've successfully enacted legal measures against him and if all they wanted was to stop him, they could have done the same again. (Take him into custody I mean, not piddling around with house arrest.) This may have just been sloppy action, but it sure as hell looks like baiting.
And hey Meddik, weren't you just complaining about melodramatic presentation the other day? A little consistency, perhaps? Not to claim the status of a "real professional" in any one endeavor has been a small price to pay for the many benefits and pleasures of trespassing. ~Leo Lionni
EZ_Ciba
03-22-04, 06:07 AM
Israelis killing terrorists = evil violence
Palestinians blowing up kids in a cafe = A faction with interests.
I got it now, thanks for clearing that up.
Jhani Vandolay
03-22-04, 06:20 AM
"one faction with interests and reasons against another faction with interests and reasons"
becomes
"Israelis killing terrorists = evil violence
Palestinians blowing up kids in a cafe = A faction with interests."?
I don't think you got it. I would go so far as to suspect you didn't even read it.
Darkefang
03-22-04, 06:24 AM
Sharon has done his best to provoke an escalation in violence since taking office. Both sides have been taking pot-shots at each other for a long time, and if there is ever going to be peace, one side or the other is going to have to make the first move.
On one side, you have Yassir Arafat, whose claim to leadership of the Palestinians is dubious at best. The real power lies spread amongst a number of other Palestinians, some of whom have no interested in peace with Israel. If Arafat calls for Palestinians to fight the Israelis, they are ready to back him up. However, when he tried to get them to stop fighting, they weren't quite so ready to follow his lead.
On the other side, you have Sharon. He has a much firmer grip on power. The military and police do more or less what he asks of them. His government has real power and can get things done.
If there is ever going to be peace there, it looks like its going to have to be the Israelis who make the first move, as they have done in the past. Whether or not anything is going to work remains to be seen, but it is assured that the current tit-for-tat escalation we're seeing now isn't going to improve the situation.
EZ_Emmrys
03-22-04, 06:31 AM
I often wonder if there's anything the Israeli's CAN do to help the situation. Even when they begin taking positive steps the suicide bombings take place.
What will satisfy those militant Palestinians? Is there some concession the Israeli's could make that would actually stop the bombings? Are there militant groups who will only be satisfied by wiping Israel from the earth?
Have we gone beyond reason and motive, and into pure hatred?
I can't help feeling morose about the situation. I really wonder sometimes if there will ever be a solution that will leave both parties intact.
EZ_Myrkskog
03-22-04, 06:43 AM
I just woke up and I read the headline as "Hamster killed in airstrike"....
EZ_Ten Evenings
03-22-04, 06:57 AM
The average non violent Israeli lives inside the borders of the biggest military power in the region, enjoys the protection of fences, a huge police division, and teenage settler thugs with Uzis. They live in the areas only 'real' democracy, and their country and ideology have the support of the worlds biggest superpower.
The average non violent Palestinian lives in Jenin or Jabalia, some of the most densely populated places on Earth. They cant get work permits, they cant own certain books, videos, etc, they cant go to the mall without going through god knows how many checkpoints, they cant do much of anything without the Israeli government involved.
Look, I know Im painting a bit of a picture, and that its a lot more complicated what anyone here has been saying, but the only thing keeping the Palestinians down is the fighting between the Israeli government and the Islamic/ nationalist militants. But from what I can tell, as an American outsider, the only people who are really suffering are poor, average Palestinians.
EZ_Yrion
03-22-04, 07:00 AM
Quote: Even when they begin taking positive steps
like having helicopters shoot missiles at people (ok some of them very bad people) leaving church.
As for the will there ever be peace thing, it's going to be tough. Jerusalem is being claimed by both parties as theirs. as long as there is no suitable solution for that problem, there will be war. And as far as I'm concerned, the Israelian army is nothing more than a bunch of better equipped and organised terrorists.
Bomb/missile attacks on civilian targets are one of the most despicable means of fighting a war, any group that uses these tactics should be appropriately punished by the world community, be it eta, ira, hamas, israel, usa, or any other.
hmmmm, now where did I leave that dead horse emoticon?
Llabak Tharr
03-22-04, 07:19 AM
The political elite of neither group wants peace, it's really as simple as that (in my mind at least, heh). Both groups are able to paint the other as evil boogeymen that will steal your children and make bread from their bones.
Too many people make their living by scaring the general populace for this to stop any time soon
EZ_Fablar
03-22-04, 07:21 AM
Quote:Sharon has done his best to provoke an escalation in violence since taking office.
Certainly been one of his biggest successes ... just wish i could understand why.
I'm reminded of an interview with the Chief Constable of the RUC, after some trouble during the marching season. When the interviewer asked if he considered the police deterrent/action had been a success, he said 'Yes, very successful'. The interviewer questioned this, as there had been trouble, and the CC said 'It was very successful, no-one was killed'. He knew that was absolutly the most important thing, and a death would cause reprisals and counter-reprisals etc.
OMG I'm starting to side with the left side of the Safehouse! Someone shoot me dead. Israel has finally crossed the line for me. I'm placing bets on the Sharone assassination watch. I'm betting, Yom Kippur 2004. Appropriate and a deserved time of demise for an assassin.
Quote:Bomb/missile attacks on civilian targets are one of the most despicable means of fighting a war, any group that uses these tactics should be appropriately punished by the world community, be it eta, ira, hamas, israel, usa, or any other.
But it gets press and attention, something they don't get otherwise. If Hammas stopped bombing, they would fade into obscurity. I'm not condoning the violence, just appreciating the frustration they must feel. Nobody gives a @#%$ unless they take a violent stand. It's catch 22, Israel military is in the hands of an opportunistic war monger, Palestine is ruled by a lackadaisical Pulitzer peace prize martyr wannabe. One is more than happy to act aggressively, the other will do nothing to stop his own people from acting aggressively.
P.S. I love how the USA was listed in there. Props on the propaganda! Edited by: Nocte at: 3/24/04 7:10 am
EZ_Emmrys
03-22-04, 07:32 AM
Yrion
Quote:like having helicopters shoot missiles at people (ok some of them very bad people) leaving church.
No, like in the 2000 Peace Accords which would have given Palestine ~95% of what they were asking for. They were offered a deal, and refused it.
Even when peace talks are in the works, land is being offered, etc, the suicide bombings continue.
I'm not saying that violence-in-turn is the right answer, but I really do wonder if the hatred for Israel from militant groups in Palestine and elsewhere are so ingrained that there's literally nothing Israel can offer peacefully that will be accepted. Edited by: Emmrys at: 3/22/04 7:32 am
Krimzan
03-22-04, 07:47 AM
I've been hoping Israel would be on the recieving end of a smackdown for a while. The US needs to (for the purposes of further hypocracy) cut support of Israel. Their behavior is outragous and keeps getting worse. The bulldozing, the barrier, the rules of engagement their military has...not to mention helicopter strikes on civilian targets, and not just this one.
I still want to know when Israel will be held accountable for their actions. Maybe soon. Hopefully it won't be in blood.
EZ_pulid
03-22-04, 07:48 AM
Quote:But it gets press and attention, something they don't get otherwise. If Hammas stopped bombing, they would fade into obscurity. I'm not condoning the violence, just appreciating the frustration they must feel. Nobody gives a @#%$ unless they take a violent stand.
So it's okey for Hammas to bomb civilians in Israel, because if they didn't they wouldn't get attention? There is no excuse for taking a violent stand. Just because an organization doesn't get the attention it feels it deserves, doesn't mean it can bomb and kill. The way I see it, Hamas is not a political organization, but a terrorist group.
Elerion
03-22-04, 07:52 AM
Emmrys, the 2000 Peace Accords didn't give Palestinians CLOSE to 95% of what they were asking for. The land they were offered was the worst of what Israel had, and they were completely denied any claims on Jerusalem, the second holiest town in their religion. In terms of pure square feet they may have been offered ~80% of what they asked for, but in terms of economic and spiritual value, it was way below 50%.
Quote:if the Norwegians
Hey, leave us out of it Ten!
Krimzan
03-22-04, 07:55 AM
Pulid, there are a lot of terrorist groups, and a lot of viewpoints. Why is Israel not a terrorist group? Because they are a country also? How about the United States? We've done the exact same thing many times over, but they're wearing turbins, so they must be the bad guys.
EZ_Ten Evenings
03-22-04, 07:57 AM
GOD DAMN CRAZY BLONDES TRYING TO STEAL MY APARTMENT IN WESTERN WASHINGTON!
/jihad
Remember that if the Israeli's are supposed to be the good guys, rocketing a quadrapalegic (as bad as he is) doesn't do that much good for your PR.
Somebody other there needs to stand up like Rabin did, and say "Hey, there are some evil bastiches on the other side, but we can't act just like them back and expect sympathy".
Terrorism sucks, plain and simple, but lets not hand out halos to the Israeli side en masse either. It's not like the state of Israeli wasn't founded by groups that committed terrorist acts. Bombings (moth against British military and civilians), assassinations and all the other violence we see today were used by the Irgun and other violent extremist grousp, many of who later saw their members in government, the military and even Prime Minister.
Saying Israeli actions are heavy handed and bad doesn't mean your're saying Palestinian actions are good. People so want black and white cut and dry solutions.
EZ_Ciba
03-22-04, 08:24 AM
Quote:I don't think you got it. I would go so far as to suspect you didn't even read it.
I suspect you haven't read the other 30 or 40 threads on the same subject, where the "evil israelis" sentiment seems to be apparent from some of our posters.
Essentially, there are two ways of looking at this.
1) Israelis and Palestinians are at war, and therefore militant leaders are fair game (but not civilians).
or
2) They are not at war, and therefore the terrorists are fair game.
In neither scenario are civilians acceptable targets.
EZ_Andorion
03-22-04, 08:31 AM
2) They are not at war, and therefore the terrorists are fair game.
If there are terrorists, then civilians are already getting killed, no?
~Berj
*edit* fixed italics Edited by: Andorion at: 3/22/04 10:39 am
EZ_joekreeper1
03-22-04, 08:31 AM
Quote:Their behavior is outragous and keeps getting worse. The bulldozing, the barrier, the rules of engagement their military has...not to mention helicopter strikes on civilian targets, and not just this one. ok let me get this staight palestinians have been blowing up babies, women, weddings, dance clubs for the better part of 30 years and when Israel targets "civilians" ( and how ANY palestinian cleric or mosque that advocates the destruction of israel is a civilian is beyond me) it is all of a sudden outragous? I say it is returning kind for kind, how do you deal with terror? a Sbaro's pizza blows up and give them what they want? sounds like rewarding terrorism, sadly I believe there will be peace in that region only if there are either no jews or no arabs...
"I don't know what's easier, making people laugh, or making them want to punch me in the face."
Llabak Tharr
03-22-04, 08:34 AM
In neither scenario are civilians acceptable targets.
In neither scenario is settlement on occupied land accepable either, and yet Israel does it.
Killing someone by blowing them up and killing them by taking the land they use to support themselves, taking the water they use to drink and irrigate crops, or forbidding them to leave their homes to find work seem to be morally equivallent. One is much more obvious than the other, but in both cases civillians end up dead.
edit: added in quote since a couple folks snuck in before me
also edit: The ultimate point is that there is no black and white here. Anyone who sees this as a black/white issue just isn't paying attention. Both sides are doing evil things to each other. Edited by: Llabak Tharr at: 3/22/04 8:35 am
Jhani Vandolay
03-22-04, 08:41 AM
"I suspect you haven't read the other 30 or 40 threads on the same subject, where the "evil israelis" sentiment seems to be apparent from some of our posters."
So when you used a specific phrase posted in this particular thread in a comment indicating response to comments in this particular thread, you were not attempting to misrepresent what was said here, but were in fact responding to all 30 or 40 previous threads, all at once?
Hahaha, sure thing.
Quote:Remember that if the Israeli's are supposed to be the good guys, rocketing a quadrapalegic (as bad as he is) doesn't do that much good for your PR.
Yep, he's a paraplegic. He's also a paraplegic who has planned and organized the death of numerous innocent civilians.
Nice try on the moral equivalency stuff, but some of us can see right through it.
Caowyth
03-22-04, 09:16 AM
The violence in Israel won't be over until one side wins.
What exactly can you see through on the moral equivalency? Are you saying that one side is completely evil and the other completely good? It's a freaking civil war, and those are always messy.
And it was reported in the news he was a quadrapeligic, if he was a parapeligic does it really matter for pr purposes? It's gonna enrage Muslims from Malaysia to the Left Bank.
EZ_Aldarion Shard
03-22-04, 09:44 AM
Ah yes, the Spanish Doctrine - avoid doing anything that might piss terrorists off. Because, ya know, if we dont piss them off theyll all go back to being peace-loving hippies who want to exist in peace and harmony with all humankind.
Meanwhile, back in reality, everyone who adopts this doctrine provides the terrorists with a great victory... Veda Kai'Rin
The original guy who masterminded the original bombing of the World Trade Center was blind as a bat. Even the modern PC Slobbus Americanus didn't try to defend his ass.
I give the Muslims similar credit. It would think it would enrage "radical" Muslims, not all Muslims, regardless of how many floppy limbs he had. That being said, disabled criminal masterminds really need to devise better contingency plans.
I'm reminded of a couple of cartoons I saw the other day...
Yeah, it was WWII, but I think it still has some relevant wisdom to the current day. You might recognize the artwork too...
Ok lets make a couple of comparisons then and see if people agree or disagree with the response.
In response to the Oklahoma city bombings, government seizes the McVeigh and Nichols family houses and bulldozes them for harboring terrorists.
FBI gets a tip that Eric Rudolph is in a pickup truck crusing on a backrood and dispatches a Apache to strike. 3 missiles are fired, 2 bystanders are killed, and it is then discovered that a similar truck was hit instead killing a man, his wife and young child. When Rudolph is later located another Apache finishes the job, reducing the toll to only 1 bystander shredded by shrapnel.
James Kopp shoots a abortion clinic doctor in the parking lot and escapes. His entire church is brought in for questioning, tortured for information, then released over a period of weeks, months, years. Out of 100 people detained, 2 suspects give out information leading to his arrest.
So would we be justificed in our actions if we did the above, or would we have descended to their level and thrown out the rule of law for the rule of the fist? Sheikh Yassin was easily located, and they could have taken him into custody, put him on trial, then locked him away or given him the death penalty. Assassinating terrorists without trials is not the way to go. What if somebody gets informed on by another terrorist to save his skin? What if a terorist informs on a moderate, knowing that his death will stoke the furnace? When your're dealing with extremists like this, they don't care if you kill them, it helps the cause.
Krimzan
03-22-04, 10:39 AM
Ignorance in the thread has reached critical mass! Explosion is unavoidable!
Read some history, Joe. I really wish you'd educate yourself on the topic before arguing with anyone.
Dragynphyre
03-22-04, 10:44 AM
I can understand the position of both the Israelis and of the Palestinians. However, I cannot support either side because I feel that both sides have done some atrocious things to each other over the past 50 years which cannot be condoned.
Like a bunch of kids fighting over the same toy in the schoolyard...but using real machine guns and vests full of explosives...which KILL rather than bruise. Grow up, all of you! (Back In Black)
Delissandra Splitshadow - Marauder of Clan X
Grandmaster Poisoner (250), Master Potter (195), Grandmaster Lush (200)
Why is it that the piece I need from EVERY armor set, from Ravenscale on up to Stanos' Wicked is the PANTS?
I honestly am beginning to think it's a conspiracy founded by Glip!
They most common canards thrown out when someone critizices Israel is that you are a 1) antisemite or 2)that you support the terrorists. People so desperately want to paint it black and white, but there are villains and victims on both sides.
Well I can say that I am pretty certain that I'm ok from #1, as I love my moms family and relatives, all my friends who happened to attend temple instead of suffering the fathers and sisters like me, and the millions of innocent people who happen to be Jewish, but just want to live their lives out.
On #2, I despise the actions of Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Hezbollah, ect. But I also despise the killing of civilians through negligence, through indiscriminate bombing, or the advocation of deporting the entire Palestinian population. Do you ever read the english versions of Israel Likub papers? There are some very extremist people on both sides, and it's getting worse. I would think that of all the countries, we Americans should be a little more sensitive to this, considering the similarities between the situation and what we did to the Indians.
Waiting for someone to do a spoof article where Saurman is killed and jittery Middle Earth markets are down on fears of orc reprisals.
Darkefang
03-22-04, 12:12 PM
Quote:Ah yes, the Spanish Doctrine - avoid doing anything that might piss terrorists off. Because, ya know, if we dont piss them off theyll all go back to being peace-loving hippies who want to exist in peace and harmony with all humankind.
Meanwhile, back in reality, everyone who adopts this doctrine provides the terrorists with a great victory...
Nobody is concerned with pissing terrorists off. There is a good chance that nothing will change the ways of a hard-core terrorist. What we should be concerned about, however, is creating new terrorists. And that is at the core of this debate.
When people feel like their fate is completely out of their own control, it is easier to convert them to extremist philosophies. The ways the Sharon administration is handling the Palestinians is going a long way towards creating more and more terrorists to replace the ones he is getting rid of.
Why is it that if someone condemns Israel's actions, they are automatically assumed to be terrorist loving suicide bomber fanboys? It's possible to disagree with one side in a conflict without being a supporter of the other side. Although I suppose knocking down strawmen of your opponents is a time honored tradition when it comes to Israel.
Also, is Meddik's posting of those nifty Dr. Seuss political comics considered a violation of Godwin's law? One of them does have swastikas in it.
EZ_Valrog
03-22-04, 12:35 PM
Hehe, israeli civilians are getting so jaded to this whole situation, it's impossible to live any other way. Here are a few comments thrown around today in class:
"He wasn't assassinated, his wheel chair simply had a car crash with a missile"
"I wouldn't recommend riding the bus back home today after school"
"I came over with a car today, 20 shekels for a ride back. I'm starting a business!" Currently known as Bagheera in Savage and Day of Defeat
Jhani Vandolay
03-22-04, 01:20 PM
"Why is it that if someone condemns Israel's actions, they are automatically assumed to be terrorist loving suicide bomber fanboys?"
Because there are only two sides to this purely black and white issue, as evidenced throughout this thread.
"I believe both sides are wrong."
"What?! You support Palestine and hate Israel?!"
"No, I believe both sides are wrong."
"What?! You support Palestine and hate Israel?!"
ad infinitum, until the thread ends.
Shouldnt that second one read:
"What?! You support Isreal and hate Palestine?!"
EZ_Andorion
03-22-04, 04:00 PM
No Aidden, because noone would be outraged if you support Isreal.
~Berj
EZ_bloatboy
03-22-04, 04:07 PM
I have to give some credit where credit is due.
Some time ago, Hamas decided that that their rivals (Fatah, Hizbollah, etc) were wimps when it came to speaking their minds, and Hamas stated quite clearly that their goal was not merely the establishment of a Palestinian nation, but that the death, or slavery of every Jew, anywhere on Earth, was a major part of their goal.
It is not that the other terror groups in that area disagree, it's just that they don't have the guts to say it out loud to the West.
Hamas has been smart in using PR, funding meal stations and "charities" in the refugee camps, but is still a pittbull in the yard. Arresting the old boy and letting him die locked up would have been much better than matyrhood.
The head of Shin Bet (the Israel domestic counter intelligence analog) apparently agreed.
www.haaretzdaily.com/hase...07397.html
EZ_joekreeper1
03-22-04, 05:08 PM
Quote:Read some history, Joe. I really wish you'd educate yourself on the topic before arguing with anyone. I've forgotten more about the Arab/Israeli/Palastine conflict than most people will know, when it was your JOB to gather information about that hotspot area for more than 2 years THEN you can call me uneducated, some people posting here were IN Israel when you were in grade school, less arrogant assumptions about those whom with you may disagree.
how many people would be angry on these boards be if it was Osama that got a rocket pod enema?
"I don't know what's easier, making people laugh, or making them want to punch me in the face."
Krimzan
03-22-04, 06:53 PM
With such one-sided information, suddenly our forign policy isn't so unexplainable. I always thought military inteligence was a contradiction in terms.
Interesting how the conservatives in office think they can kill two birds with one stone with the foreign policy in Israel, one, try to create a wedge issue that will drive away a demographic that voted 90% for Gore in last election, and two, continue down the proper path for the Rapture. Edited by: Lisboa at: 3/22/04 7:12 pm
Krimzan
03-22-04, 07:18 PM
I once argued with a guy who clamed that we shouldn't drop support for Israel no matter what they do because God said that he will bless those who bless Israel and curse those who curse it...
shehab aldean
03-22-04, 08:55 PM
saw this at slate
http://humorink.com/cartoons.php?cmd=vote&imageid=662&today=yes
EZ_Ten Evenings
03-22-04, 09:43 PM
Krimzan, I think thats the real underlying argument in the whole thing.
Some people believe that Israel is God's will, some people believe its just a country that shouldnt have been bludgeoned into existence.
Darkefang
03-22-04, 09:55 PM
That cartoon sums things up pretty well Shehab.
Elerion
03-22-04, 10:14 PM
Haha, brilliant cartoon Shehab
Jhani's latest post is also probably the best thing that can ever come out of this thread. Kudos.
EZ_joekreeper1
03-22-04, 10:57 PM
Liz, Krim, ever been to the middle east? ever meet anyone from there? snide comments don't make people wise....
Sheb has a first person perspective ( although diamterically opposed to mine on many subjects) of what is going on there, it's easy to sit in the comfort of your home and dictate foreign policy, it is another thing all together to KNOW what is happening.
again I ask who would be angry if the USA did the EXACT same thing to Osama Bin Laden?
Krim?
Lis?
"I don't know what's easier, making people laugh, or making them want to punch me in the face."
Ask Shebab what he thinks of the treatment of Palestinians by Israel, go on... you're so sure he knows better than us by living in the region.
EZ_JookaWoo
03-22-04, 11:19 PM
How bout you all STFU, sit back, watch and leave what isnt your bussiness happen. Hell, if our @#%$ politicians would STFU for a change, maybe a real end this to this BS would end because they could @#%$ each other up and come to a conclusion w/o BIG BROTHER looking in and sayng @#%$ you I wanted this outcome, your @#%$ im coming for you.
The status quo is not sitting back and watching what happens between the parties. The status quo is our country watches Israel like it's part of the US, we're more concerned with the day to day events of Israel than countries we have a nuclear defense treaty with--so how can we STFU even if we want to? Edited by: Lisboa at: 3/22/04 11:25 pm
EZ_JookaWoo
03-22-04, 11:27 PM
insult edited
You are warned, this thread was at least pretending to be civil before you got here. Don't post in this thread again if that's the way you're going to be. Edited by: Llabak Tharr at: 3/23/04 3:32 am
Please make a coherent statement before criticizing the rest of us.
EZ_JookaWoo
03-22-04, 11:30 PM
heh.
Krimzan
03-23-04, 04:30 AM
The EXACT same thing to Osama?
I think that'd be pretty funny. We get him, then we let him go than blow him up in a year or so in the middle of Riyadh. The US people would be outraged that we let him go in the first place, then the Saudi Arabian government would be up in arms that we sent a helicopter into their airspace, fired a missile into a city and killed 10 or so of their citizens along with Osama and some of his bodyguards and relatives. The Arab world would claim it was further proof of US, anti-Arab aggression. Next thing you know our embassy in Saudi gets blown up by terrorists, and we'll have pizza joints going up right and left.
Or should we do it in Afghanistan, cuz they aren't a real country and nobody will care if we kill a few of them. I guess to make it the exact same thing we should do it to Mexico. You're going to have to first invade them and take most of the country, then occupy them for 40 years too.
EZ_Valrog
03-23-04, 06:06 AM
"You're going to have to first invade them and take most of the country, then occupy them for 40 years too."
Moses way to twist the facts. These threads depress me. Edited by: Valrog at: 3/23/04 6:06 am
EZ_joekreeper1
03-23-04, 06:46 AM
Quote:Ask Shebab what he thinks of the treatment of Palestinians by Israel, go on... you're so sure he knows better than us by living in the region. like I said we're probably diameterically opposite on this issue
"I don't know what's easier, making people laugh, or making them want to punch me in the face."
Diametric opposition to Shehab would be liking israeli militarists and liking palestinian terrorists. I see a problem with that statement.
Krimzan
03-23-04, 08:16 AM
Which part of the facts were twisted, Valrog. The part where Israel invaded Gaza and started putting in settlements in the '60s or, the part where they still occupy and control the area today?
EZ_Peebs
03-23-04, 08:30 AM
Quote:Sheb has a first person perspective ( although diamterically opposed to mine on many subjects) of what is going on there, it's easy to sit in the comfort of your home and dictate foreign policy, it is another thing all together to KNOW what is happening.
Quote:Ask Shebab what he thinks of the treatment of Palestinians by Israel, go on... you're so sure he knows better than us by living in the region.
Umm okay, let's all talk about what somebody else feels who is perfectly capable of reading and posting on this thread himself. How about just letting him speak for himself? Edited by: Peebs at: 3/23/04 8:30 am
Well, his first-person pespective may not mean as much as you think. yes, he lives in the Middle east, but in Kuwait, not Israel or the Palestenian territories. (Almost misspelled it terrortories... Hmmm...)
His "first hand view" isn't going to be a lot more valuable than anyone else's here in that particular circumstance. Its not like he's right around the corner or anything. Now, ask him about the Gulf war, he might have some more valuable information that the rest of us do, but otherwise, he's probably relying on the media, just like the rest of us.
So it's been over 48 hours.
EZ_Peebs
03-23-04, 12:26 PM
I believe they declared a 3 day (I think it was 3) mourning period, so I'd expect things to heat up after that.
EZ_Sillis Spineslicer
03-23-04, 12:35 PM
Yes, it is a 3 day mourning period (shops are closed as well for the first day IIRC).
At least they are "giving" Israelis some time to dig in before it starts...
EZ_MinionX
03-23-04, 01:03 PM
Its simple math
Israel Kills arab
Thats 1 Arab gone, maybe more
Arabs get pissed
arab guy blows himself up and kills jews
Thats another arab gone, with some jew deaths
Jews kill more arabs
And you repeat this till there is no Arabs left
See, they are losing the numbers war ;o)
They may get some kills, but they killing themself in the process, the jews will get some kills, and won't kill themselfs heh heh
Honestly, I do laugh at some of the arguements you people are doing here
Like the one about timothy blowing up that OSB
Big difference in what you guys are trying to say
See the people you listed weren't known terrorist, they were also *gasp* americans
So they had a right to a trial
Now Look at people who aren't americans, and who've commited Terrorist acts
We didn't just fire an apache missle back at some terrorist guy, We went to his @#%$ country, and wiped it off the face of the earth
Then we did went to his neighbor who we didn't like, and wiped him off the earth
We basically said
"Sure, destroy two of our towers, we'll just come and wipe out your goverment, and all your friends, as well as your country, and then we'll do it to any of the countries near you that we don't like"
Hell, do you know why it was planes that hit WTC and not a suit case nuke going off in New York
Because Osama himself said that he didn't want to risk having America retaliate with nukes on his country
Even terrorist are smart about that
Krimzan
03-23-04, 01:23 PM
...
Congratulations, sir, you have made the top 10.
Dragynphyre
03-23-04, 02:11 PM
@ Minion
Now there's a scary mindset.
EZ_Vagabond
03-23-04, 02:21 PM
He's not scary, he's patriotic!
:P
Ninen of Saryrn
The War Council
100: Claymore mines are not filled with yummy candy, and it is wrong to tell new soldiers that they are.
101: I am not allowed to mount a bayonet on a crew-served weapon.
These Handy tips brought to you by The 213 Things Skippy is No Longer Allowed to Do in the U.S. Army
EZ_linox
03-23-04, 03:27 PM
since this my favorite topic, here is a VERY intresting article (a bit long but worth the read) for you guys to read
Statistical Analysis of Casualties in the Palestinian - Israeli Conflict,
it's all in the numbers
Actually Minion, you might want to check on your theory. Current Israeli discussion on demographics, is that the Israeli arabs (who are citizens of Israel, and thus protected by all the laws of the nation) are outgrowing the Israeli jewish population. Add in the West Bank and Gaza, and you have a population boom. Many on the right and left are fearful that a S. Africa style apartheid movement could be formed. So there is an effort to reduce the number of Israeli arabs (several villages and towns being redrawn into the West bank ), and block out the rest via the under construction barrier.
And as far as your opinion on the rest of the world except America, congratulations, you now have the attitude of a 19th century imperialist. Why respect the rights or opinions of wogs, frogs and natives eh? We all know the only lives that matter are americans. Hell, lets have a poll about executing anyone on this board who isn't a american, I mean what have they ever contributed right?
Edited by: MARBH at: 3/23/04 3:37 pm
EZ_MinionX
03-23-04, 05:55 PM
"And as far as your opinion on the rest of the world except America, congratulations, you now have the attitude of a 19th century imperialist. Why respect the rights or opinions of wogs, frogs and natives eh? We all know the only lives that matter are americans. Hell, lets have a poll about executing anyone on this board who isn't a american, I mean what have they ever contributed right?"
You pretty much said it yourself
"congratulations, you now have the attitude of a 19th century imperialist"
Thats my exact attitude on the subject
The strongest nation makes the rules
The same @#%$ you knobs our spouting today is the same @#%$ people were spouting in the 19th century about Britain
Just accept that this is how it is going to remain this way.
Look at the Iraq war for details on this
Alot of the "big world powers" like France/Germany/Russia said no.
US said "Oh well" and did it anyway, Because the US is on top right now
Every major power on earth has done this when they were top dog
You people act surprised americans do it as well
So if you don't mind, I'm going to go back to my Gluttony and use up more of the worlds resources while telling you people to excercise control
EZ_Ciba
03-23-04, 06:15 PM
MinionX, the opinion of the french is meaningless to me. They won't defend themselves, let alone anyone else.
It seems more of Europe is going this way, with the recent elections in Spain.
Krimzan
03-23-04, 07:20 PM
Angry teenager much, Minion?
EZ_MorrellVZ
03-23-04, 08:21 PM
Quote:It seems more of Europe is going this way, with the recent elections in Spain.
Ohh, this is the sentiment I've kept quiet about for so long but enrages me. Spain's elections aren't an example of a people tucking and hiding from terrorists. Rather, it's a nation that knew its leaders were lying to them and weren't protecting them. Of course they had a regime change. I wish certain people in the U.S. would jump on said bandwagon, electing representatives that will actually protect them instead of their corporate interests.
Llabak Tharr
03-23-04, 08:22 PM
Enough Krimzan
EZ_BD Nightfall
03-23-04, 08:32 PM
In a sick, twisted way I found Minion's remarks about wiping out them and their friends and everyone else...amusing...
EZ_joekreeper1
03-23-04, 11:36 PM
Krim I like you, you remind me to think and act, and I am also opposed to you in everything you stand for, but why is Krim, constantly given a pass for his personal attacks?
Seriously, anytime any of you Utopian countries out there want to pick up the slack and fund the world. Be my guest. My tax dollar would do me a helluva a lot more here at home. Until such time, the snipes are pretty much sour grapes.
Those damned uppity Americans!
EZ_Fablar
03-24-04, 02:34 AM
Quote:people were spouting in the 19th century about Britain
Yeah, that late 19th Century British imperialist attiutude really created and held together an empire well, didn't it?
The British Empire was created under more of an attitude of inclusiveness (for the time), and when it switched to an elitist attitude of 'we're better, we'll tell everyone what to do, everyone must want to be like us' was when it started to decline.
The Spainish elections are a pain as it will be claimed a victory by the terrorists. I hate the fact that this has happened. But when governments take armies into wars and lie about the reasons then there is going to be political turmoil. I'm still waiting for a good reason for the war, other than the humanitarian one, in which case there are many other countries that were 'deserving'.
EDIT: Nocte, just out of interest, who are your comments directed at? Edited by: Fablar at: 3/24/04 2:36 am
Morrell, You misjudge americans by a long shot, if you think America is going to surrender and go for appeasement in the war on terror.
EZ_Emmrys
03-24-04, 06:50 AM
Just a thought, and probably totally out of line, etc, and it's not meant to be a troll, but:
The War on Terror reminds me of the War on Drugs...
Damn, I'm so cynical these days!!!
Quote:Nocte, just out of interest, who are your comments directed at?
Any non-American critic wearing the world's heart on their sleeves. Everyone criticizes until they have a natural disaster or needs a big brother to stand behind them on the playground. Then we're the greatest thing since sliced bread... until they're self sufficient again.
Trust me, I'd much send my kid to college than support any other country at this point in time.
My Crib « · » ErollisiMarr « · » E-mail
To gain that which is worth having, it may be necessary to lose everything else.
~ Bernadette Devlin McAliskey Edited by: Nocte at: 3/24/04 7:12 am
Quote:Krim I like you, you remind me to think and act, and I am also opposed to you in everything you stand for, but why is Krim, constantly given a pass for his personal attacks?
Did I miss something here?
only thing that comes close to a personal attack is you all be called "knobs", and since im leaning towards agreeing with the statement, I didnt pursue it..
Besides considering the source and the rest of the argument is was included with, I assumed it was either the rantings of a lunitic or he was simply looking to garner a reaction for the board..
All kidding aside, Dont be Dinks..
Edited by: Aidden at: 3/24/04 7:22 am
Krimzan
03-24-04, 10:45 AM
For Emmrys, and anyone else with a good sense of humor.
www.mnftiu.cc/mnftiu.cc/war.html
EZ_linox
03-24-04, 10:53 AM
they are trying. look at this innocet palestinian child
EZ_Emmrys
03-24-04, 11:35 AM
Krim, that 2/9/04 entry is hilarious. I've never actually seen that stuff, but it is pretty funny. About as liberal/anti-war/anti-Bush/etc as you can get, but as someone who leans that way I find some of that stuff hilarious.
I'd think many wouldn't find it funny at all though heh.
Why is it that the ones complaining about Israel killing Yassin are the same ones complaining that we haven't yet got Osama?
I don't see that being done, but I would think it's a lot easier to missile attack someone you've previously held under house arrest in the rather small Gaza Strip than it is to find someone hiding in the wilds of the Afghanistan/Pakistan border. Mind you if we had all the resources from Iraq there looking we might find him quicker. Although the French are apparently coming close, having found a recent hideout in there area. Irony would be if they captured him eh?
EZ_MorrellVZ
03-24-04, 02:15 PM
Quote:Morrell, You misjudge americans by a long shot, if you think America is going to surrender and go for appeasement in the war on terror.
Well, that's if you hold the same view of the American people as you do, that being a super human race that can do nothing wrong and those terrorists are only jealous of our great phalli, they can't be any legitimite reasons they might be angry with us. None at all.
Please, spare me the America is always right rhetoric. I'm not calling for surrender/appeasement in the "War" on "Terror." Rather, I'm calling for intelligent foreign policy that doesn't see everything as black and white, black being those dirty bastards and white being everything that'll cooperate with American business. The black and white view pretty accurately describes Republican foreign policy in the last 40 years.
The supposed War on Terror, which is really a war on weak nations that don't say "Yes, America" every single second of their existance, can be won by a. having international support in the arena of fighting terrorism, and b. not making more terrorists.
A can be gotten by no longer annoying our allies by destroying nations for Halliburton's profit margin. Remember that period between 9/11 and the Iraq build-up when pretty much the entire world felt sympathy and was willing to work with us? B is gained by not supporting murderous, sometimes unpopular regimes in Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Israel, Uzbekistan, and by not bombing nations and their people into oblivion, once again for Halliburton's profit margin. I realize that's difficult for you to fathom, because obviously Cheney was Halliburton leader so Halliburton must be great because Cheney is great. But, unfortunately, Halliburton is not great.
you realize this picture you have of America wasnt gotten buy just republicans?
I understand its easy for you to make it a black and white issue (republicans being the black and democrats being the white) but if you are going to bash america as you have try to remember we have had plenty of Democratic leadership over the last 40- 50 years as well.
Be consistant in your anti americanism or else you your true anti-conservative colors are going to peek out and we might catch on to ya..
EZ_Rorne
03-24-04, 05:07 PM
Fine, then lets just agree both the Democrats and the Republicans have screwed up at times. That still doesn't solve any current problems.
EZ_joekreeper1
03-24-04, 06:49 PM
Quote:The supposed War on Terror, which is really a war on weak nations that don't say "Yes, America" every single second of their existance what the....huh?
"I don't know what's easier, making people laugh, or making them want to punch me in the face."
Krimzan
03-24-04, 07:53 PM
You want a War on Terror, you attack Saudi Arabia. Largest haven and funding source for terrorists bar none. The "war on terror" has largely consisted of America asking other countries to join us, and slapping them with huge tarrifs if they don't.
EZ_MorrellVZ
03-24-04, 08:24 PM
Quote:I understand its easy for you to make it a black and white issue (republicans being the black and democrats being the white) but if you are going to bash america as you have try to remember we have had plenty of Democratic leadership over the last 40- 50 years as well.
Okay, where do I say Democrats have it right? Oh wait, I didn't. It's just that in the last few decades most sponsorship of terrorists and brutal regimes happened to be in Republican administrations. Yes, Kennedy/Johnson supported the Ngo dictatorship and it's equally brutal successor via coup in South Vietnam. But look at Jimmy Carter, where does he do this?
I do not support the Democratic party. I agree with them on some issues. Very few times has anyone said anything I disagree with relating to the Democratic party, so I rarely need to speak up on such issues. Maybe this is why you see me simply as an anti-conservative? (Which, btw, in some ways I am, but not in the ways you think of it). And to say I should be consistent in my anti-Americanism is equally off target. How can I be consistent in anti-Americanism if I'm not anti-America? Just because I disagree with the Republicrats and their corporate overlords doesn't make me against the Constitution or necessarily the state of America, no matter how many times its flag stands for terrorism, brutality, repression, and theocracy.
EZ_joekreeper1
03-24-04, 09:05 PM
Quote:You want a War on Terror, you attack Saudi Arabia. Largest haven and funding source for terrorists bar none. no argument there, we agree on this point
Quote:The "war on terror" has largely consisted of America asking other countries to join us, and slapping them with huge tarrifs if they don't. people honestly believe this?
edit: fixed my incorrect quotes =) Edited by: joekreeper1 at: 3/25/04 6:11 am
EZ_Gnarwar Floatingbuffalo
03-24-04, 10:46 PM
wait, im confused by joe there ^
Thats the funny thing, I'm not antiamerican at all, I just think we are picking too many fights and are gonna have a hell of a bill down the road because of it. I don't trust china farther than I can throw them, and since we're building our own future superpower rival, I think we need to keep more friends then enemies.
Quote:You want a War on Terror, you attack Saudi Arabia.
Agreed. Once Iraq is stabilized, And Oil Production is up to levels high enough that the saudis can't use the oil weapon against us, Then we grab them by the balls and squeeze.
Tell them they either quit funding Wahabbist expansion and paying off other internal extremist groups, or we will take further measures as we see neccesary. Could be economic, could be military. Since we are right next door, it makes it really friggin convenient.
We can survive with Higher Oil prices a lot longer than they can with zero Oil revenue to prop up their government.
Darkefang
03-25-04, 06:11 AM
Quote:The "war on terror" has largely consisted of America asking other countries to join us, and slapping them with huge tarrifs if they don't.
I've seen tariffs on steel, cloth and soft wood. I've also seen increases to farm subsidies. What I haven't seen is many across-the-board tariffs on entire nations. Our ridiculous protectionist trade policies are to blame for the tariffs, not the war on terrorism.
And I'm confused by Joekreeper's post too Gnarwar. I'm going to assume its some kind of typo.
Quote:Please, spare me the America is always right rhetoric. I'm not calling for surrender/appeasement in the "War" on "Terror." Rather, I'm calling for intelligent foreign policy that doesn't see everything as black and white, black being those dirty bastards and white being everything that'll cooperate with American business. The black and white view pretty accurately describes Republican foreign policy in the last 40 years.
Im sorry, maybe I misunderstood. Does "Republican" mean "both parties" in your language?
EZ_MorrellVZ
03-25-04, 02:01 PM
Quote:We can survive with Higher Oil prices a lot longer than they can with zero Oil revenue to prop up their government.
So why not do it now? Oh wait, because our Great President is in bed with the Saud royal family. And the bin Laden family to boot.
I understand your point about Iraq being stabilized, but Saudi Arabia's just gonna turn into another Iraq/Lebanon situation, I think. You have on one hand the Saud royal family that's been pretty much held up by US intervention and by catering to fundamentalists at the same time, then there's two factions within the people of Arabia. You have those that want a traditional Muslim state, and those that want a free secular state. What do you think will happen when the Saudi's influence falls apart? Which side do you think America will end up on?
Quote:Im sorry, maybe I misunderstood. Does "Republican" mean "both parties" in your language?
No. It's just that Democratic administrations haven't followed the black and white view I spoke of. They've held different views on it. The reason I didn't talk about that is because it wasn't brought up before. I guess if you want to get into the pros and cons of Democratic foreign policy we sure could. And you'd find plenty of comments by me berating it. But that's beside the point. We're talking about a Republican administration, and the conservative movement's take on the War on Terror primarily in this thread, which was why I said what I did.
I was making a snipe at conservative/Republican foreign policy. It's a fun debate trick. Now, in most threads that are talking about Democratic policies, I generally don't speak up, because Meddik and fellow conservatives are pretty good at taking up that slack.