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  • EQ Community
    Round Table Member
    • May 2004
    brogett

    Disc combinations

    Following a discussion in the safehouse channel last night I decided to do a quick test. Unfortunately it's flawed as I don't have access to the necessary support classes, but it serves as a starting point to work from. They're short 30min parses only, but that's sufficient to get a ballpark figure and it's already 60x longer than the actual discs will last in real fights.

    The discussion was around RF+FS vs RF+TC. Some rogues fell about laughing when I mentioned TC stacks well and that I sometimes use it instead of RF+FS, especially when using a glyph + full support crew. I'm not saying it is *always* the best combination as there are many other factors too, but it's far closer than some may realise and well worth a more detailed investigation. To start the ball rolling - a couple short parses.

    1. RF+TC+rog epic+glyph of cata+TE+flurry trib. Some other self clickies (overhaste, attack), some buffs (unity), but sadly lacking things like the triple attack mod via chanter haste (I had a shaman haste up) and the ranger buffs.

    /tell Brogett Brogett -vs- Test Ninety: -- DMG: 42556115 -- DPS: 23629 -- Scaled: 23629 -- Pierce: 30293180 -- Backstab: 12056000 -- DirDmg: 206935 -- Non-crit rate: 62.1% -- crit rate: 37.9% -- Attempts: 11688 -- Hits: 11688 -- Accuracy: 100% -- Avg Hit: 3641 -- Max hit: 41668 -- DMG to PC: 0

    2. RF+FS+(as above)

    /tell Brogett Brogett -vs- Test Ninety: -- DMG: 41255232 -- DPS: 22907 -- Scaled: 22907 -- Backstab: 22145306 -- Pierce: 18858623 -- DirDmg: 251303 -- Non-crit rate: 75.1% -- crit rate: 24.9% -- Attempts: 13392 -- Hits: 10741 -- Missed: 2651 -- Accuracy: 80.2% -- Avg Hit: 3080 -- Max hit: 41668 -- DMG to PC: 0

    Analysis

    My weapon here is 90/20 with 49BS mainhand, 82/19 offhand. Basically T2 rog piercer with conv piercer offhand. Mid-level rogue stuff.

    So RF+TC beats RF+FS, but that's too simplistic. I miss all sorts of buffs and mob debuffs. So let's think about them in turn.

    A) Bard songs. Aria will massively increase flurry rate, which in turn modifies by primary. Unfortunately it's hard to tease out this data from the above given I had piercers in both hands, but from other parses about 60-65% of non-bs attack is primary due to triple+flurry. Bard song will boost primary only, having an overall effect of something like 25% boost to melee swings combined. I estimate that this will add 4.2k dps to RF+TC and 2.6k dps to RF+FS.

    B) Pinpoint / Easy Mark. We're looking at 10% and 17% mod to backstab, which clearly benefits FS. Alas Easy Mark doesn't last the duration, but let's err on the side of favouring FS and say we have a rotation and multiple rogues are keeping it up for the duration. 17% more BS isn't really 17% more as we have +440 backstab through precise strikes, maybe another 100 in gear and 50 in heroics, so maybe ~600. My average backstab looks to be about 7.1k vs this lvl 90 dummy, so easy mark is approximately going to be around 15% boost. That puts it at +1k dps for TC vs +1.85k dps for FS.

    C) Shaman epic. Increase Critical Hit Damage by 110% // Increase Chance to Critical Hit by 65%. It's non trivial to estimate precisely what impact this will have, so I'd love to do a proper parse when I'm able to get support. However it's clear that the shaman epic does more damage when we are doing more of our dps via crits. RF+TC gave me 67% of damage in crit form and RF+FS gave me 47% of damage in crit form. Clearly TC will be boosted more by crits. At an estimate based on average crit vs average normal hits for pierce & backstab it appears *approx* something like 4.5k dps for TC vs 3.7k dps for FS. I have little confidence in the actual numbers though, but ratios are probably not so far out.

    D) Weapon progression. I have distinctly average progression weapons. End game we're looking at something like 101/20 primary with 51 backstab and maybe 106/22 offhand. So ignoring for simplicity the effect of +damage/min-hit values, ratio wise end-game will be gaining me about 12% pierce and 4% backstab. This means as I gear up TC will be getting stronger faster than FS will.

    E) Reliability. FS is great when we have the rear arc, but let's face it we've all suffered times when the corner pin has just been duff (far too often for my liking) or someone has ganked agro and span the mob just as we hit the best disc combo. RF+TC will suffer too of course, but far less. It's hard to qualitate this, but clearly RF+TC is the more consistent output.

    F) The remainder... It's not sufficient just to compare RF+TC vs RF+FS. We obviously then have whatever we didn't stack with RF to use later, so we really need to compare RF+TC and later FS vs RF+FS and later TC. How much later depends on fight - whether we get to use another epic, etc. It's a bit of a grey area with lots of unknowns. I haven't parsed them in isolation for some time, but they were pretty similar last time I looked.

    Putting it together the parse showed 0.7k dps diff and with proper support this widens substantially. We need real parses to know the actual figures though. I'll see if I can get appropriate support to do this, but it'd be great if someone with end game weapons could do the same.

    Clearly I'm missing something major here though, probably because most of the above gains are multiplicative and not additive. Looking at parse graphs I vary between 50-60k dps for the duration of RF+TC burns, and that's far more than the figures above indicate for support. (Generally a factor of 2 for ADPS isn't so far out though.) I guess the maths isn't up to it and I haven't considered things like war cry, Nature's Fury, etc.

    In summary - don't assume... test!
    Last edited by brogett; 07-19-11, 03:08 AM.
  • Hand of the Ring
    • Feb 2007
    Taoden

    #2
    Re: Disc combinations

    If I'm not mistaken unless the text on East mark disc is wrong it doesn't effect backstab but instead works on piercing and doesn't stack with Pinpoint. Could be wrong though I am tired.

    Comment

    • EQ Community
      Round Table Member
      • May 2004
      brogett

      #3
      Re: Disc combinations

      The text is probably wrong. I'm sure it's backstab and raidloot spell parser claims it too.

      The disc started as piercing during beta, but rogues complained that it'd help classes that do a larger percentage of damage through primary swings more than it would rogues and that we're not happy gaining ADPS especially when it benefits others more than ourselves.

      Hence the devs changed it to backstab. It's a bit crap though that we now have two conflicting backstab modifiers. Pinpoint and easy mark need merging.

      Comment

      • EQ Community
        Round Table Member
        • Jun 2006
        songsa

        #4
        Re: Disc combinations

        I read quickly but i think you forgot to mention that FS last 1 tick more than TC making the combo RF+FS last a bit longer than RF+TC.
        Personally the parses in raid situation (using glyph) show a clear advantage for RF+TC when i have nature's fury running, the difference is less noticeable between the 2 combos when NF is not on.
        Songsa
        Raging Fury
        Antonius Bayle

        Comment

        • Veteran
          • Dec 2001
          Stalk

          #5
          Re: Disc combinations

          Brog, send a tell to Bristle.Joker sometime. I can get you shammy, bard, and enchanter buffs (I have those boxes) and they are already on test.

          Comment

          • Registered Member
            • Sep 2008
            nollen

            #6
            Re: Disc combinations

            I've felt for a while that using TC with the "Big Burn" combo was probably equivalent or close enough to using FS, and in some cases better. The primary reason I don't usually use it is because very few fights that I'd be burning on a raid are shorter than 40 seconds, and TC stacks much better with effects I'll be getting after RF wears off than FS does.

            I don't have numbers to back that up, however. Brogett addresses this in part F) of his post, so I'm not trying to take any credit here, just reinforcing.

            Comment

            • EQ Community
              Round Table Member
              • May 2004
              brogett

              #7
              Re: Disc combinations

              songsa said:
              View Post
              I read quickly but i think you forgot to mention that FS last 1 tick more than TC making the combo RF+FS last a bit longer than RF+TC.
              Personally the parses in raid situation (using glyph) show a clear advantage for RF+TC when i have nature's fury running, the difference is less noticeable between the 2 combos when NF is not on.
              Good point - I'd forgotten about the extra tick. So I guess it's 1.2*(RF+FS) vs RF+TC + 0.2*(RF+base?). Will need better parsing for sure. Alternatively if you know you have time for a 2nd round of epic clicks but not enough for a second round of RF, then it may be worth switching instantly to RF+TS for 1 tick of overlap. We really need to know the dps of each and every combo, which isn't trivial.

              How does Hundred Hands impact on stabbing? From what I recall it uses some nominal delay (3sec? something odd) for the calculations when using activated skills. Does it boost FS more than TC? You seem to imply TC gains more but I'd have to test that one as I don't know the exact effect it has on backstab.

              My gut feeling tells me that the optimal burn order is not fixed and will depend on support classes.

              Comment

              • EQ Community
                Round Table Member
                • Jun 2006
                songsa

                #8
                Re: Disc combinations

                brogett said:
                View Post
                How does Hundred Hands impact on stabbing? From what I recall it uses some nominal delay (3sec? something odd) for the calculations when using activated skills. Does it boost FS more than TC? You seem to imply TC gains more but I'd have to test that one as I don't know the exact effect it has on backstab.

                My gut feeling tells me that the optimal burn order is not fixed and will depend on support classes.
                This is what i see during usual parses i didnt parse it specifically but i can explain why TC would be better than FS with nature's fury by 2 reasons :

                1st -> TC is 100% accuracy so you have many more hits landing than FS even with bs being quicker with FS and with hundred hand effect the number of hits landing is even more important. Those hits landing critic more often and with shm epic, bers effect, 3rd spire etc... this is multiplicative.

                2nd -> nature's fury is HH effect and a boost of flurry %, with 100% accuracy from TC you have more triple attack landing due to no miss and then more flurry (firing when triple is hitting) that are boosted even more again with NF flurry % boost.

                I see some multiplicative effects here that are not so important with FS.

                2 things to temper that though : the flurry bug with aria of the composer making maybe flurry from NF useless (need to parse it to see if we have more flurry with nf or not when we have aria running), the second thing is i don't know the impact of HH effect on backstab exactly, maybe it's more important than i think but it doesnt seem as noticeable as we could expect in real situation.
                Songsa
                Raging Fury
                Antonius Bayle

                Comment

                • Registered Member
                  • Sep 2008
                  nollen

                  #9
                  Re: Disc combinations

                  100 hands is a static reduction to attack delay, which is why it stacks with all other haste. I don't even know if it works for backstab, but the % effect it would have on something with a 2+ second delay would be trivial compared to the % effect it has on our normal swings. That's why 100 hands helps TC much more than FS. Once RF expires, we are still getting a 100 hands effect from berserkers, beastlords, or bards, typically.

                  Comment

                  • EQ Community
                    Round Table Member
                    • May 2004
                    brogett

                    #10
                    Re: Disc combinations

                    songsa said:
                    View Post
                    2 things to temper that though : the flurry bug with aria of the composer making maybe flurry from NF useless (need to parse it to see if we have more flurry with nf or not when we have aria running), the second thing is i don't know the impact of HH effect on backstab exactly, maybe it's more important than i think but it doesnt seem as noticeable as we could expect in real situation.
                    NF won't add any more flurries at all if you have aria, as the bug is such that you 100% flurry chance if you triple attack, and further more every flurry lands for a double extra hit instead of the more common single hit. Basically you either have 2-hit rounds or 5-hit rounds and never inbetween.

                    It may actually be that bug which is making TC so unexpectedly good.

                    Comment

                    • Registered Member
                      • Aug 2006
                      IssusTruspirit

                      #11
                      Re: Disc combinations

                      We finally beat Al'Kabor's At World's End event last night after spending 2 days total on it. Took us two attempts last night to nail it. There were two rogues on that raid, myself and another. My burn disc order has been TC + RF + 3rd + etc then, in the case of this event, as soon as TC wore off (while RF & 3rd were still running, not to mention a little of shammy epic still going) i immediately hit FS to take a slight advantage of all those effects still going on. Then of course i wrapped up with Assassin's. The other Rogue that was on last night's raid used FS + RF + 3rd + etc.

                      I asked him to try TC in place of FS on his burn for our 2nd attempt at Al'Kabor. The results-

                      He improved his overall dmg by 800,000. I kid you not. I'm at work, so don't have access to my logs to post it, but it was that significant of an increase. I'm in favor of saying that TC + RF + 3rd > FS + RF + 3rd at this time.

                      And as a side note, we're both extremely close in gear, i'd give him an edge as having better gear/Ohaste even than myself but i think i have slightly more AAs than he does.
                      Last edited by IssusTruspirit; 07-20-11, 03:07 PM.
                      sigpic

                      Comment

                      • EQ Community
                        Round Table Member
                        • May 2004
                        brogett

                        #12
                        Re: Disc combinations

                        Oddly enough that's almost precisely what I did on our last Al'Kabor burn too, and it put me ahead of the other rogues as well. Some of that though was due to the other group having a shaman that didn't click their epic at the right time, which cripples the group synergy.

                        Without NF I was doing around 55k dps using RF+TC combination, using T2+conv weaponry.

                        It's certainly not too shabby a setup, but I still hope to do some proper long term parses to see how they pan out as it's a bit too anecdotal atm for my liking.

                        Comment

                        • EQ Community
                          Round Table Member
                          • May 2004
                          brogett

                          #13
                          Re: Disc combinations

                          I have parses running atm with both bard songs and shaman epic click, with many thanks to Joker for assistance. I can't report on how they're all doing as I'm not at the PC now and I only have one sufficiently long parse (RF+FS+friends). That was 36.7k dps averaged over about 29000 secs IIRC. The RF+TC parse was too short when I left home this morning, but it was hovering around the 40k dps mark (+/- 1k probably) so approx 10% up on dps.

                          Obviously there are other factors, like no backstab debuff (easy mark/pinpoint) on NPC, I wasn't using by endurance draining abilities like wound or battery (so no +dam mod from that either), and the fact that FS outlasts TC. Plus I didn't have NF either. All things considered though it's a very close call. Proper data available once it's finished.

                          Comment

                          • Registered Member
                            • Sep 2004
                            Kriyn

                            #14
                            Re: Disc combinations

                            How would an overall event parse compare when using TC/RF/3rd to using FS/RF/3rd. FS by itself seems to be much less than TC by itself. It would seem that using TC/RF/3rd would give you a nice burn, but after that you are left with Assassins by itself and then a weaker third option.
                            I'm ok, how are you?
                            Kriyn Nutzforcatnip - 90 Vah Shir Shaman
                            Rinerin Poisonblade - 95 Gnome Rogue
                            Nilliben Kneebasher - 90 Gnome Warrior
                            Rodcet Nife (Quellious)

                            Comment

                            • EQ Community
                              Round Table Member
                              • May 2004
                              brogett

                              #15
                              Re: Disc combinations

                              Kriyn said:
                              View Post
                              How would an overall event parse compare when using TC/RF/3rd to using FS/RF/3rd. FS by itself seems to be much less than TC by itself. It would seem that using TC/RF/3rd would give you a nice burn, but after that you are left with Assassins by itself and then a weaker third option.
                              That's what I was referring to above with "F) The remainder...". It's not at all clear yet, but I think we need parses with and without various burn combinations and then slice and dice appropriately.

                              Comment

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