currently 2L7 with the following :
Vanish 1
MoS 2
Longwind 1
Viper 1
then....
Viper 2 (@3L5)
followed by....
aug dex 1 (3L6)
aug dex 2 (3L9)
aug str 1 (4L0)
aug str 2 (4L3)
MoP 1 (4L4)
MoP 2 (4L7)
RR respec at 5L0 (the stones are easy to come by in the NF dungeon)
I erase everything I got between 3L5 and 4L8 to get...
Viper 3 at 5L0
after 5L0 I go for my augs again (prolly won't get MoP though).
The idea is to make the road from 3L5 to 5L0 and getting viper 3 easier at a relatively low cost (one RR respec stone)
Any suggestions regarding this plan ?
I am thinking the assasinate/viper3 combo at 5L0 could be pretty wicked. Perf once, then run away a short distance still stealthed and wait for the poison to do its work. Your victim will never even see you !
Hm. I just read the new Viper. They made it PASSIVE? Holy crap. No wonder people want Viper 3. And I didn't even realize they deleted DR. I guess I should read the RA list a bit closer.
There is an oversight that is giving you double trouble: Purge is not in your RA list, nor is it considered in your assassination strategy.
5 points for Purge1 is worth it. You just can't/shouldn't use it on stuns.
Furthermore, Viper3 seems like putting all your RA points in one basket. Between Purge, Remedy, Cure Poison (in ML form!), and Heal Wards, there are too many counters to venom to be spending 30 RA points on it. Don't get me wrong, I have Viper2, but 15 points is too many for 25% more poison damage.
I recommend getting any or all of: Vanish (excellent for PvE, good for escaping from non-stealthers in RvR), Second Wind (I use it all the time, may save up for level 2 to decrease the timer), First Aid 1 (you might not want it, but again, it's a 3-min timer and it's not up often enough), MoS3, Purge1, maybe a couple levels of Toughness, Avoidance of Magic, Aug Whatever, etc.
Put another way, you could have:
+50% poison damage, the ultimate detaunt/escape method, a way to cure any negative effects including crowd control and other assassins' poisons (all types, not just damage), and a full endurance heal...
...or...
...+75% poison damage.
I wouldn't even take Viper past tier 1 until I was RR5, if I were you.
Edit: I see you have Vanish in your plan, but the point stands.
regarding Purge:
I am aware of this weakness. My understanding is that Purge 1 is relatively useless...In 5 secs I am often dead if mezzed. I have been told by many Infs that Purge 1 is utterly useless for get-aways. This means I need Purge 2, and 15 RRpts, to gain any real use from it.
Have you tried Purge 1 only and found it to be useful ?
In the BGs I have been mezzed and killed often enough to appreciate purge but I also manage to get away quite often just with Vanish and Longwind when I am not mezzed.
That being said, it is a great weakness I agree. I am hoping to improve my situation by getting the Ceremonial Bracers Art, but apparently this art is none too easy to get (there is only one on sale at the Guin ME for 16 plat !).
Purge I isn't useless, just more situational. As said, you can't use it on stuns, but it works well enough on long messes. If you're running around solo, then yeah, maybe it's not worth having mes anyway, as you'd be dead. I like to run with my guild though, and non stealth groups, and I thought purge 1 was nice enough for those long messes so I didn't have to stand around watching everything. I've since gone to Purge 2.
I see Viper's merits, I'm just not sure if I want it at all yet. Yeah it's nice, but there's a lot of passives I want. Was going to load up on Aug Str/Dex(possibly even lvl 5, lvl 4 respectively), as well as some toughness. Since I already have Vanish 1, and MoS 3 already, it doesn't leave much room for Vanish. Val, have you noticed what kind of damage you've done with Viper 2? If it's that good, I might change my mind.
The mez/stun deflection on the Ceremonial Bracers are cool, but it's got a drawback. If it deflects a mez or a stun, it doesn't trigger your immunity timer. I see a lot of crowd controllers cast mez several times, to ensure they hit the folks that resist, so odds are good that you'd just get mezzed on the second pass.
Still, it has it's uses. If you get the jump on a skald or cleric, they won't be able to just insta mez you and run away.
Purge 1: Yes, I only have Purge 1, and I'm glad I do. Mez isn't what I tend to use it on, anyway. There's plenty of stuff that actually kills you that you can get rid of with it. Sometimes the delay actually makes my Purge use more intelligent than it would be without the delay: my Skald had the old Purge, and I'd frequently use it on (for instance) a stun, moments before a mez/root lands.
Viper 3: Ah, the source I was looking at said Viper 3 is +75%. +100% means that it's the same amount of points to get +50% from Viper 1 and 2, and +50% from Viper 3. However, my point stands. IMO, Viper 3 would be a RR6-8ish ability.
As an assassin, your advantage over most other classes is your variety of damage-dealing methods. Just like 50 CS would make you great as long as your only targets are sitting robed casters, Viper 3 at low RR would make you a great as long as your only targets don't have Purge, Remedy, Heal Font, any kind of healing, cure poison, solo, or without someone with the last three abilities along.
Viper 2: Hard to say, because I've only been playing a Nightshade again for a few days, and they've been spent doing quests/artifacts/etc. So this may not be accurate for RvR purposes, but: 90-130/tick with Lifebane.
What I have seen on other boards is that with Viper 2, you avearge 100/tick and with Viper 3 you average 200/tick.
<starts to fantasize>
Now lets say you have Viper 3 and DoT poison on all your blades.
You will Perf and hit with both weapons about half the time with a good chance of hitting with both poisons is not right away then on the second or third hit (this seems to be actually preferable). When you do that, it's 400 pts of poison dammage in addition to your perf before the victim can even have a chance to purge. On the second tick one poison has overwritten the other so you are getting 200 pts/remaining ticks. If he purges, or even if he doesn't wack him with your third weap for a minimum of another 200 pts dammage....
Yes you might get resisted at times...Oh I don't want to even get into the possibilities if you happen to have the Spymaster ML3 ability as well.
<goes into a momentary coma of delight>
@Locust
Ugh that seems to suck. So you are suggesting that more often then not I will get mezzed anyhow with the Bracers?
I was hoping they would be practical on getaways as I am sprinting out before I hit Vanish. Maybe there is enough of a delay between a first mez/stun cast and the second one?
I'm just trying to help. I assume "4X Infiltrator" means you are theorizing. I am not. Fantasize all you want, but that is the opposite of the information I am offering. I want to be able to kill someone when all the odds are against me (unstealthed, no venom, not the one who initiated combat, higher-RR opponent, outnumbered, etc.), because that sort of automatically takes care of the "odds in my favor" situations.
Also, that math doesn't work, it sounds exaggerated; RA bonuses listed are not cumulative. Made-up numbers: if Lifebane does 67 dmg/tick, then Viper 1 makes you do 83 dmg/tick, Viper 2 makes you do 100 dmg/tick, and Viper 3 makes you do 134 dmg/tick. And that's assuming you are correct about the bonus. Is there someone who actually has Viper 3 that can tell us whether the bonus is 75% or 100%? We both have a reliable source, and they contradict each other. Not that it makes much difference, I still see it as a misuse of points at 100%.
Also, I recommend using Enervating on your main hand, and Lifebane on your offhand, instead of two Lifebanes. The hit point loss from the Con debuff cannot be healed, and the Str debuff is valuable in itself. If you want to get really tricky, use Disease instead of Enervating if you know your target is a healing class, and Snare if it's someone who needs range to hurt you (casters) or will definitely try to get away (and would otherwise succeed).
Yeah, according to the Herald V3 takes you up to 100%. I'd be interested in seeing some logs of the 45 DOT and Lifebane both at V2 and V3. I used to get around 65-68 per tick out of my 45 DOT before I sold. I remember getting hit by Lifebane and seeing 84 per tick. 100/tick at V2 sounds reasonable--even a little lower than I'd expect. 200/tick at V3 sounds a little higher than I'd expect.
Val, just a note on the comment about 50CS: 50CS is nice against any character--not just "sitting robed casters". At least that was my experience on my Inf. 44 works fairly well, but 50 was very nice.
In my preliminary research for a possible return, I looked at a RR10 RA build. My first thoughts were:
Viper 3
Vanish 1
Second Wind 2
MoP 4
MoS 2 (not sure about whether I'd want this one)
Aug Str 3
Aug Dex 3
Toughness 2
Avoid Magic 1
Long Wind 1
If I decided against MoS, I'd thnk about dropping Long Wind and AoM and putting those six points into Tough 3 or Purge 1.
My main purpose of that build is dealing damage. Viper 3, Second Wind 2, MoP 4, and both Augs are for the express purpose of maximizing damage (Second Wind would help greatly in fights agains multiple attackers, I think). Vanish just sounds kind of fun. The Herald says Vanish 3 is speed 5. Isn't that Bard/Minstrel/Skald type speed? And how long does the speed last?
What is Cure Poison? What is the Spymaster 3 ability?
This isn't a dig, but the day I have 2.5 spec points is the day I take CS to 50. What I meant was sacrificing weapon spec for CS spec. I've seen Nightshades with almost no weapon and 50 CS, and the statement about robed casters is true. Sure their PA cap is twice mine, but good luck finding a situation where you hit your cap, these days.
At Vanish 1, you get one second of super-stealth (unbreakable, undetectable, increased speed). So basically, Vanish 1 just lets you stealth during combat. Additional levels of Vanish increase the duration of the super-stealth, but I can't find the duration numbers anywhere. I know "10 seconds" is in there somewhere, but I can't recall if that's for tier 2 or 3.
I was wrong about there being a ML ability Cure Poison (it's group Cure Disease, and another for Nearsight). However, the free RR5 Nightshade ability is Remedy, which is 60 seconds of poison immunity.
Spymaster 3 is Enduring Poison: 15% chance of venom not being removed from a weapon on contact. The documentation says the 15% chance of the poison staying is only when it's resisted, but that's not how it's implemented currently.
Comments on your RA list:
No, no, you definitely want MoS, at least tier 3, if not tier 5, since you're talking about RR10. I currently have MoS1 and won't be spending points on anything else until I have MoS3. The speed increase is nice, the detection radius increase is invaluable.
Nothing wrong with Second Wind 2. That'll probably be my next purchase after MoS3.
Careful about the 1-pt abilities. RA points come fast early, and slow down a lot after RR5. Purchase expensive abilities (3-tier abilities, or 5-tier abilities you want to get to tier 3 or higher) first, unless it's something so useful it outweighs the drawback of nickel-and-diming your points (like Long Wind 1).
Oh, and this is a dig: take that stupid Ripper whine out of your sig.
Two-thirds of the assassin population can't (shouldn't) even get it; it's a sub-trivial bug, which is why they haven't fixed it yet. If Mythic's bug-fixing team (person?) has to choose between fixing Ripper and fixing anything else, I'd prefer they work on the latter. I can't honestly say "even if I had 50 CS", but I can say so by conjecture.
You shouldn't even be wanting to use it. Ideally, you should do Hamstring backed up by Garotte, and then if Hamstring lands, keep doing Hamstring backed up by Leaper. When Leaper goes off, start over. Also, if no stun has been landed yet, start with Dragonfang/Garotte, and once DF lands, start with the Hammy goodness. Replace "Garotte" with "Achilles Heel" if the last successful style you landed was Garotte. You'll always be doing the ideal style at any given time, and never do an unstyled swing, while only watching what styles you land, and not having to pay attention to your opponent's attacks.
About the duration of super-stealth, it's 1 second, 2 seconds, and 5 seconds for lvls 1, 2, and 3 respectively.
I'm starting to rethink my final RA build also.
I'm 4L2 right now, with Vanish 1, Purge 2, MoS 3.
I had planned to end up with:
Vanish 1
Purge 2
MoS 3
MoP 2
Aug Str 5 (might seem a little excessive, especially since I'm a thrust inf, but I could use all the WS I can get.)
Aug Dex 4
Toughness 3
Looking at it now, it's possible to do:
Vanish 1
Purge 2
Viper 3
MoS 3
MoP 3
Aug Str 3
Aug Dex 3
Toughness 3
It depends on the effectiveness of Viper 3 I guess. IMHO Viper is the kind of RA that's all or nothing. I don't think Viper 1's benefit is worthwhile. 25% of a 64 tick DoT is...*shrug* I may try this on Pendragon to see what kind of damage I can come up with.
Any thoughts? I still like the Higher Aug Str/dex, my goal was to increase my "passive damage" any way I could through WS mostly. Viper is passive also, but it's a lot easier to avoid poison than a rapier.
Activated abilities tend to be more powerful than passive abilities (by design), however, I feel that too many people overlook the passive abilities. You should be able to succeed even when your active abilities are not available. So, basically, I agree with you, Kilthlanas. However, little more detail:
It seems to me that 3-tier RAs (for all classes) fall into one of two categories:
1) Tier 1 or 3 Only
2) Tier 2 Max
#1 means either having the ability at all is good enough (ex. MCL, First Aid) or it's more "All or Nothing" because the tier 3 effect is so damn good (ex. Perfect Recovery tier goal should either be 1 or 3).
#2 means the ability is just all-around great, so you want as much as you can get, but 15 points is just so many that it's probably not a good idea to take it that high ("all your eggs in one basket" problem). A few assassin-specific abilities that I think fall under this category are Second Wind and Viper.
Yes, and you are helping. I just realised I didn't show my appreciation, so thank you. My comments are not exactly all theory. I have spent ALOT of time in the BGs before and after NF from level 24 all the way to level 44. Admitedly RvR at 50 is another kettle of fish, and I am posting here so I can get the opinions of the more experienced like yourself. But that doesn't mean I will simply take everything at face value and not delve a little further into the discussion
Regarding the math... no it doesn't work out and you are right to question it as I do as well, I am just reporting the claims I have seen elsewhere (and then admitedly fantasizing about it ).
My current set-up is the one you reccomend; I use enervating on my main and DoT on off, or DoT on my main and disease on my off. But when I get to Viper 3 I may be mightlily tempted to go all DoT, and I will definately test it at Viper 2.
No problem. And I wasn't fishing for a thank-you, I just thought it might be appropriate to point out that I have no emotional investment in your RA selection, or whether you follow my suggestions.
You are going to have plenty of time to decide for yourself whether Viper 3 will be worth it. I have simply already done the time and can give you about two dozen reasons why it isn't. Testing for yourself is better.
...just be careful of the fantasizing. Fantasies are great, but realities are what you have to deal with. Also, watch out for people sounding really excited (or dejected) when they describe abilities they have, if their descriptions include any kind of estimation. It's funny how people exaggerate both the positive and the negative, depending on whether they're talking about how awesome they are, or how much they suck (whichever case serves them better in that moment).
Another tip: the DAoC system is based on one fundamental principle. That principle is evident in every aspect of the game design. If anything is unbalanced, it is most likely due to that thing not following the principle closely enough. The principle is "diminishing returns".
...and while I'm channeling Yoda/Morpheus, a tip about min/maxing (getting the most benefit for the least cost, aka powergaming): the secret to domination in any game is to know the rules better than anyone else. The more complex the rule system (MORPGs), the bigger your potential advantage.
...which means I am actively decreasing my power by sharing my knowledge, but I just love you Safehouse denizens too much not to. I'm also hoping everyone else returns the favor, so I guess we'll just agree to make all assassins more powerful. Tough luck to anyone not smart enough to read the boards here, or ask their local assassin questions.
I did some rather amateur tests purely with regard to the speed increase between MoS 2 and MoS 3. I found it to be negligible. On the other hand I really like the speed increase between no MoS and MoS 2. My current theory is simply that a 5% speed increase is not very evident nor satsifying. I am tempted to say go MoS 2 or MoS 4... of course detection ability is another matter.
I did the same test with MoS, but I seemed to notice the dropoff from going from 3 to 4. Prolly just my mind playing tricks on me, but I'm happy with lvl 3.
Thanks for the comments,
Why MoS 3+? I remember not having it before (old version) and not missing it at all when other assassins did have it around me (enemy and friendly, alike). Is the archer detection such a big deal?
I don't think anyone should have low weapon and 50 CS, but I would think for a NS
33 stealth
44 pierce
50 cs
31 env
4 cd
would be viable. Might not be ideal, or suit your particular playstyle, but it should work. 50 CS is definitely more attractive at high RR when you can lower stealth and envenom to free up a few points. Of course, with Ripper being horked up, it would be kind of goofy to spec 44 pierce, 50 CS; all else being equal, 47/46 would seem to make more sense.
I don't understand the comments about the cap. Cap is fairly irrelevant. All the CS styles do more damage with higher CS, most importantly the evade chain. Saying the only value of 50 CS is against sitting casters is incorrect. Maybe I misunderstood you. Also, I actually did hit cap on a few occasions with 50 CS...against standing NSs and Rangers notably. Also on some Middies. Capped on standing casters quite a few times.
Remedy sounds pretty cool. Not as cool as Assassinate to my mind, but that's my initial impression. I haven't used either of them.
Lastly, I'll change my sig when it suits me, not you. :p
Just letting you know that it's whiny. Do you want to be whiny?
...and your damage over time would be pretty horked with no points in CD like that. Viable, yes. Ideal, no.
Not to mention CD value for an opener. An offhand swing is 100+ damage for me (without a proc or the Lifebane). I'd need 11 more points of CS for that (cap increase, not necessarily average dmg increase), and since it's already at 35, those points are better spent increasing my chance to swing two weapons.
Actually I am most probably going to stick with MoS 2.
My grguement was sort of go MoS2 or MoS4 not in between since at MoS3 the speed increase is not very noticable. But it's more a perception thing then anything else.
My test was the following :
Got MoS2 and timed a run from pointA to ponitB (admitedly not a long run)
Got MoS3 and did the same...
didn't see much of a difference.
Just letting you know that it's whiny. Do you want to be whiny?
I don't see it as whiny. Realistically, I don't think Mythic is going to fix Ripper any time soon, so I made that little sig as an anti-temptation device. I'm sorely tempted to rebuild another Inf, but I really shouldn't.
...and your damage over time would be pretty horked with no points in CD like that. Viable, yes. Ideal, no.
My old Inf was solid with only 12 in DW, but two levels of DR probably helped. Low DW/CD was fine when you could augment with DR, but maybe not so much anymore.
I'd need 11 more points of CS for that (cap increase, not necessarily average dmg increase), and since it's already at 35, those points are better spent increasing my chance to swing two weapons.
Huh? 11 points? Is your CS at 35? You mean it's at 39 now?
Also, that math doesn't work, it sounds exaggerated; RA bonuses listed are not cumulative. Made-up numbers: if Lifebane does 67 dmg/tick, then Viper 1 makes you do 83 dmg/tick, Viper 2 makes you do 100 dmg/tick, and Viper 3 makes you do 134 dmg/tick. And that's assuming you are correct about the bonus. Is there someone who actually has Viper 3 that can tell us whether the bonus is 75% or 100%? We both have a reliable source, and they contradict each other. Not that it makes much difference, I still see it as a misuse of points at 100%.
viper 3 rocks
it is a killing machine
100-200 damage variance
average damage is around 150
against pets, average of 200
Follow-up: I've had Lifebane tick as high as 158 with Viper 2, so 200 at Viper 3 would indeed be possible.
However, it's still 15 more points for 50% more poison damage, which in my opinion does not compare in value to other abilities you could get with those 15 points. On the other hand, if you already have those abilities, it would be great to get Viper 3, which is why I described it as a "RR6-8 ability".
My point is that I don't think the power of Viper 3 is greater than the power of 15 points' worth of other RAs, assuming you are choosing between Viper 3 and "Viper 2 and anything else" (which you are, if you are RR4). I don't mind your opinion being different than mine
My preference is to be a Jack of all Shades, Master of None. I may be a a slightly less efficient killer than someone who chooses a focus, but I also do not have a single Achilles heel. (For instance, if you fought me and I had Remedy available, which is "usually", you would probably lose.)
RR2L5: Viper 2
RR2L9: Toughness 2
RR3L3: MoS 2
RR4L8: Viper 3
RR6L3: Vanish 2
RR6L8: Toughness 3
RR7L2: Aug Con 2
All other RSP's will go to aug str.
The reason for the Viper3, is to do a little bit of extra damage, but, my goal isn't to kill with poisons. Its to force the person to purge / IP at the beginning of the fight (using enervate and dot). This allows for 2 things: Disease + re-application of DoT, and also allows for my frosty's stun to go un-interrupted.
Shadowzerk template btw: 35 stealth, 44 Sword, 44 Left Axe, 35 Envenom, 13CS (RR5 and lower.. each RR above that, i'll end up respec'ing envenom lower, raising CS)
Is your target really going to know you have Viper 3 and burn purge on it? When I played a warrior (pre-NF) I would typically purge as soon as two poisons landed on me. Do you really think people are going to be looking that close at the damage numbers and thinking, "OMG, poison ticking for 170! must be viper 3! gotta purge!"? If it's all just about making your target think the damage is noticably higher and more threatening, I would think viper 2 would manage that nearly as well and for a lot less RP expenditure. Those 15 points could be use to jack up your crit rate or give you an even better vanish/getaway car. (since I see you favor a lot of defensive RAs)
Really the only way I see to effectively use high viper in PvP is in conjunction with grapple, as noted above by another posted. That's a little situational for my tastes though. Cheap purge negates it otherwise, and everyone should have purge 1 pretty early. Against a good player with purge up you'll probably only get two ticks out of your initial damage poison, which is an extra 200 damage if you're lucky. If you want to play the weapon-swap dance then yeah, you'll probably do better with it.
What I think people seem to be forgetting is that with Viper3 it still is upfront damage. If you get viper 3 and put lifebane on both weaps it will hit for around 130 damage for each of the times its not resisted.
So thats an additional 260 damage done in the first round of attack. Most people will see their health bar drop that fast will think of only running away. 260 hp on a caster is Quite a bit and maybe enough to even 1 shot them. So if they notice and purge immediately you will get the initial 2 hits and possibly another 130 damage as the 2nd one ticks for additional 390 damage in a few rounds.
Over the weekend I am going to do some testing with viper 3 on pendragon copy over with my heat lw and see how things go.
If that's what floats your boat, more power to you. Personally if I'm going to spend ~30 points on an RA, I'm going to get mastery of pain 5 or Aug Str 5, or some combination thereof. I can't imagine the overall addition to damage is any worse than a few poison ticks, and I know no one is going to purge my crits or improved weaponskill.
To those going heavy in Viper. All I can say is good luck. When you go up against a RR5 Nightshade all those points in Viper are useless (due to Remedy). Actually, it doesn't matter much where you put your points when fighting a RR5 Nightshade. They hit plenty hard as it is, and not only can't you slow, disease, debuff, or DOT them, but they can still do all that to you. That's major imbalancing IMO. All assassin types rely on poisons. How Mythic can give one class total immunity to it is beyond me. And the timer is meaningless for the one-on-one fights, because it will be back up before you can say, "I have no chance against them." The other assassins have no means to do any additional damage to make up for the immunity to poison that a Nightshade can't also do. One quick little button at the beggining of each fight and both Infiltrators and Shadowblades are so far behind the eightball, it's ludicrous.
Plus, utility. That RR5 ability will always get used all the time. How often do you think Assassinate, or the SB's similar ability gets used? Close to never.
I would suggest that your best bet against high RR nightshades is not to have spent points in envenom, and hope that your additionall offhand damage makes up the difference.
Well, yeah, if you are counting on Viper because you've spent most of your points on it, you probably aren't going to do very well against a class that has a DOT immunity ability. Remedy being great (yes, it is) wasn't my point. My point was not putting all your eggs in one basket, because there's always a class out there that can fully counter one or two kinds of basket.
Also, on Remedy, two things that are being overlooked:
pro: it's not just for poisons, it's any item-based DOT effect
con: it takes away 10% hps when you use it (yes they come back when it ends, but that's usually after the fight is over), which is 150-200 hps for me... there have been plenty of times that I did more damage to myself than I prevented, or prevented so little after factoring the 200 dmg that it wasn't much of an advantage.
...also consider elves and lurikeen have very low con, Infs get 2.5 spec, SBs get bonus hps, etc etc. I'm not sure a direct comparison of unique RA is a fair one; it's just another thing to add to the advantage/disadvantage pile.
). 
