I thought I'd start a discussion thread on this, with some parses too.
Heroic strength
This directly and indirectly boosts damage.
Direct - every 10 (rounded down) str adds +1 to all attacks. Ie int(str/10).
Indirect - it boosts attack. This is typically equally as important as the direct damage, but it's harder to quantify due to the mitigation of arena NPCs being so different to in-game. Still have parses to do.
Heroic dex
Direct - every 10 (rounded down) dex adds +1 to *most* attacks. This was news to me, but I have parse evidence. It doesn't change min hit, but it does move the 2x dam spike and max hit.
Indirect - it boosts crit rates, believed to be about 25 dex per 1%. I've no idea if this is quantised. I need to reparse this.
Evidence came from varying hstr (and not originally checking agi/dex) and seeing unexpected changes to hits.
The last two lines specifically give good evidence.
This was a 66 dam primary weapon with no elemental.
Max hit is therefore 2*66*3.55 + DB, with DB being 20 + floor(str/10) + floor(dex/10). The values agree.
The formula for hits is basically:
DB + floor(Hstr/10) + floor(Hdex/10) + ceil((round(rand(1 to 20) * weapon_dam / 10)) * (rand(100 to 355) / 100.0))
I'm not convinced on the ceil/round parts of the variable component, but the constructionof damage bonus seems correct.
I forgot to add. What I was originally attempting to do was to work out the impact of the minimum hit modifier with Fero.
I now have the details. Basically 200% minimum hit is essentially boosting min by 2 times weapon damage, although the base isn't quite the same. Futher more it stacks with the assassin and duelist ones.
With 199 Hstr my min hit is as follows:
Modifier hit
0 63
200 171
400 303
516 379
600 435
The difference between 200 and 400 modifier is 132 (I had 66 dam weapon). Similarly between 400 and 600 is 132. 400 to 516 is 1.16*66 diff - ie 76. Similar figures hold up for offhand too.
I believe the min hit formula to therefore be:
DB + floor(Hstr/10) + Min(floor(Hdex/10) + X, floor(Hdex/10) + min_mod*damage)
where X is the normal hit calculation.
Note that Hdex/10 doesn't change minimum hits, hence why the min modifier check is inside the min(a,b) calculation while the DB and Hstr are outside it.
With no modifier to min hit, the normal weapon rolls end up being our minimum value. Hence X above becomes ceil(1*dam/10) which is 7 for my weapon. Add DB + Hstr/10 + hdex/10 and we get 63.
One question - does anyone have a Faycite Seal of the Berserker? I know disc min modifier (duelist, assassin) and worn modifier (fero) both stack. Does this mean a second worn modifier could also stack? It's unlikely, but I'm curious to know!
Brog
PS. Given that weapon damage scales with min hit, it doesn't appear that this has any significant impact on what to choose for mainhand or offhand.
Second observation - heroic dex bonus gets multiplied during critical hits, while heroic strength does not. We can observe this by varying both dex and str independently to see what happens in normal and critical hits. Heroic dex is also applied before the minimum hit check applies, as observed earlier.
This means the flat +dam portion of dex is >> than the +dam portion of str. Strength of course boosts dps in other ways (via attack).
Observe the minimum hit value, the 2x damage spike, and the max hit. In both crit and non-crit fashion. Primary here is 66 dam with no elemental. To clarify the 2xdam spike, we have two variables in the equation - the DI value from 1 to 20 and the PCDam value from 1.00 to 3.55 in 0.01 incremements. DI is very commonly max hit, so we get big spikes when DI=20 and PCDam=1.00 and another at DI=20 and PCDam=3.55. With PCDam=1 the spike is essentially damage bonus + 20*dam/10 - aka "2xdam spike".
All are as per parse 1 but 2 more damage to all hits regardless of crit or non-crit.
This is due to 210/10 str vs 198/10 (rounded down to 19).
Conclusion - heroic strength applies to every hit, regardless of whether minimum value or crit.
Conclusion - the minimum value is the same as parse 1. Our Hdex doesn't count as it's in the MIN(min_hit, hdex+ x*dam) part of the equation.
The 2xdam spike and max hits from 20*dam/10*1.00 and 20*dam/10*3.55 equation components have gone down by 3 compared to parse 1. This is due to 184 dex vs 157dex (18 vs 15 when rounded).
Crit: Min=465, 2xdam=511, max=1559
Conclusion - the minimum hit again hasn't changed vs parse 1. However 2xdam and max hits are down 10, not 3. This implies that the critical hit multiplier acts after the heroic dex bonus has been added.
Primary min/max hit `171/525, crit 456/1536
Secondary min/max hit 96/277, crit 242/794
Conclusion
1. Approx 150 heroic dex accounts for 1% crit rate. (It's hard to parse this to high accuracy, but the difference between primary and secondary rates in both parses was within 0.1%.) There is no evidence in whether this is quantised by dex, dex/10 or dex/25.
2. Gained approx 2 procs/min, but I didn't check yet which was mainhand and which was offhand. Likely this comes through dex increases too.
3. No adjustment on accuracy. The tool tip for dex claims that it improves chance to hit, but maybe that's only true at very low levels. Clearly heroics don't help.
4. Min hits all move by 16, consistent with +Hstr/10 only applying here.
Max non-crits both move by by 32, consistent with +Hstr/10 and +Hdex/10 applying.
Max crits move both move by 65, consistent with +Hstr/10 and crit_mul*Hdex/10 (approx 3).
I'm a bit disappointed in the crit rate modification, but it's still better than nothing. This means we can pretty much take any parse and directly calculate how much impact our heroic dex has on it for total damage done.
For str it's harder - I need to redo some long parses without the minimum hit adjustment from worn Fero and then try and figure out the DI and PCDam distributions - how do they change with AC vs attack?
2. Gained approx 2 procs/min, but I didn't check yet which was mainhand and which was offhand. Likely this comes through dex increases too.
Scratch this! I can't be sure what my Combat Effects stat was. Likely I lost a considerable amount due to removing gear to lower dex. It's probably the cause of this. Bah humbug!
Hey Brog - do you think this recent parsing changes your weighting for augments based on the effect hdex is having on crits?
Yes, although I'm not sure how much by. Heroic strength is a trickier one to get a handle on as it increases attack. The benefit of that isn't even constant (it depends how much other attack you have and how that compares to the mob AC). I'll try and parse attack gains, but it's tricky given parse dummies act so different to real NPCs. First thing is to figure out how many "increase mitigation"s to make them realistic dummies.
Where hit is DI_roll * weapon_damage * PCDAM_roll. (DI_roll is 1 to 20, PCDAM_roll is 1.00 to 3.55). The first roll at 20 and the second at 1.00 gives us the common 2 * weapon_damage spike.
Dmod is 1.00 normally, but with rogue's fury it becomes 2.40.
Cmod is 1.00 for a normal hit, and 3.1ish for a critical hit (3.05? 3.11? unsure!)
The impact of this is that heroic dex is multiplied up when we critical hit and also multiplied up when we're discing with assassins or rogue's fury. I demonstrated this using a RF parse.
All parses. Mainhand = damage 66, offhand = damage 32.
So the difference between the 2x hit spike damages in parse 1 and 3 is 13. That's due to 210-144 str (+7) and 186-125 dex (+6).
The difference between the 2x hit spike damage in parses 2 and 4 is 22 (and diff in max spike is 21). This comes from 7 + 2.4*6 => 21.4.
Similarly the difference between critical hits in parses 3 & 1 is 25, matching 7+3*6 - the crit multiplier being somewhere around 3.
Critical hits in the RF parses seem to vary between 49-53 points of damage when changing str/dex. This is consistent with 7 + 2.4*3*6, with the fluctuations coming from rounding issues.
I believe the actual value of cmod to be around about 3.05. Note that the 2x spike is 2*dam*1.00 and the max spike is 2*dam*3.55. Giving a difference between the two if 2*dam*2.55. We see this in the non-crit values from parse 1 say (2xhit=178, max=515, diff=337 => 2*66*2.55). For crit we have difference of 1516-448=1028 => 3.05*2*66*2.55. Similarly in parse 4: (3618-1154)/2.4/2/66/2.55 = 3.05. Rounding errors may change this a bit.
I can't quite get my head around how crits work then as they seem to have an extra additive component. I currently have something like:
Why +5? It's needed to work with 3.05 crit multiplier. Anyone have any knowledge of our proper crit multiplier?
Brog.
PS. Does this mean dex >> str? The jury is still out. While damage bonus from dex obviously gets multiplied up by crits and by discs, and damage bonus from str clearly does not. The attack bonus from str clearly *is* multiplicative with discs and crits, meaning both stats benefit during burns.
My focus on most gear upgrades are the gains in Hstr and Hdex, with Hstr usually being the front runner. It's nice to see what exactly may be the benefits from both.
It might become useful to start asking for AA's that increase heroic stats. I do wonder though how much flexibility we really have to increase hdex at the expense of hstr for example or both hstats in favour of HP/AC.
I rather like the fact that gear choices matter again. There was a while when it was clear we'd be capped on all stats, so the only difference between one bit of gear and another was the hp/ac.
Now we decide - do we want to focus on offensives or defensives? Etc. Great!
It might become useful to start asking for AA's that increase heroic stats. I do wonder though how much flexibility we really have to increase hdex at the expense of hstr for example or both hstats in favour of HP/AC.
there is alot of flexibility for a raid rogue, some gear is melee only, some is plate/chain, and some is all/all, each has different heroics. also, going from sod to uf, some upgrades to uf are only hp/ac with losing alot of heroics, especially str and dex. So as a raid rogue, u have many choices to go over.
It might become useful to start asking for AA's that increase heroic stats. I do wonder though how much flexibility we really have to increase hdex at the expense of hstr for example or both hstats in favour of HP/AC.
Last I heard they lacked the ability to grant heroics via spells or aa, only worn (and tribute since it acts as an extra worn slot with 5 augs)
This means melee attacks. It's range only now. As a consequence the only benefit to us from hDex is the minor crit mod from the overcapped original dex stat, or when we're throwing. I verified this now on test server.
So that's taking it back then for us to really just focus on Hstr I'm assuming either way that's crappy. From what i'm reading in that thread it really sounds like hdex while still slightly useful isn't anywhere near as useful now.. Am I correct in that brog ?
Pretty much yes. HDex is still the best heroic for defensives (for us), but offensive is purely str now if you ignore the minor crit improvement via dex.
This means melee attacks. It's range only now. As a consequence the only benefit to us from hDex is the minor crit mod from the overcapped original dex stat, or when we're throwing. I verified this now on test server.
Just patched to live servers this morning.
"- Heroic Dexterity will no longer incorrectly affect all damage types. It should now affect ranged damage only"
