Your ignorance is the Devil's bliss. Every time you scorn what confounds you, he smiles. Every time you sow the fear of him where there was none, he laughs. It's you he loves. It's you he thanks in his evening prayers. -Everville
I don't know what to say about it. I've never seen so much concentrated hatred. Its horrible. I know that. I know it doesn't represent everyone in Iraq's opinion. I know the wrong response is killing every last one of them. What do you do? Civil justice enforced on a brutal population seems like trying to put a square peg in a round hole. One thing for sure, I hope we never back off. Even if we are there for 50 years. They can never believe that that sort of thing will keep us from finishing what we started.
Edit: There are animals I would consider more human than the people involved in that act. Edited by: Raith Fennin Ro at: 4/1/04 2:29 pm
Quote:If 1000 Americans are killed then we kill 10,000! If 10,000 Americans are killed then we kill 100,000.
We'd run out of American's pretty quick doing that...
Oh, you meant we'd kill 100,000 of THEM, nm.
What happened there is a tragedy, both for the loss of life and for the appallingly barbaric reaction of the mob. It's what happens anytime that lack of education and zealotism get the opportunity to do harm.
I honestly don't know how you go about combatting ignorance and religious zealotism without trampling all over the rights we in this country cherish. I don't even know if it's possible even if we did break the rules.
I'd say we should work on building them schools, but we have a hard enough time educating our own children. Maybe we could get Japan to run the education portion.
It made me sick to my stomach honestly. These weren't US combatants; they were US contractors who were just there to repair the country. Obviously they didn't care too much, other than the fact that they were American.
Acts like that go against the principles of just about ALL religions including Islam, so I'm not sure how they are going to explain the act other than murder.
"You there, fill it up with petroleum distillate, and re-vulcanize my tires, post-haste! Also, I'd like to send this letter to the Prussian consulate in Siam by aeromail. Am I too late for the 4:30 autogyro?" - Monty BurnsEdited by: Bondori Zafiro at: 4/1/04 3:13 pm
Nod, most of the time contractors are contractors. Only reason I know is cause I live in NC and some of the local news gave some info about them. I haven't seen anything on the major news outlets about it. Hara
Quote:If 1000 Americans are killed then we kill 10,000! If 10,000 Americans are killed then we kill 100,000.
Right. No offense, but didn't we all learn the error of that logic in, like, kindergarten? A kid pushes you, you punch him, he gets a stick, you get a stone, he gets daddy's gun . . . Not to mention that's blatantly racist. Have you hugged your usurer today?
Can you link me to a news article where there were hundreds of people partying in the streets after they murdered Matthew Shepard? THAT is the difference here. I'm not talking about hate crimes perpetrated by a few people, but hate crimes where people celebrate.
Post 9/11 and after this there were thousands/hundreds of people partying in the streets. How is one to think of these monsters as anything other than subhuman? Edited by: Ciba at: 4/1/04 3:52 pm
Quote:A kid pushes you, you punch him, he gets a stick, you get a stone, he gets daddy's gun . . .
I'm guessing I had a much different childhood than Boot Disk, or my schoolmates parents had fewer guns.
minoltas, there's a significant difference between the two. Matthew Shepards killers certainly wouldn't have been brazen enough to do it on television, or in public. There's a different type of evil going on here altogether.
Neither of the killers has gone out of their way to make inflammatory anti-homosexual remarks after or during the trial (that I know of).
Actually if you want examples of mob violence with celebration afterwords, look to our own history, happened after the NY draft riots, happened a lot after lynchings. Ever see the pictures of people taking their pictures in front of hung blacks? I point out two examples one north and one south to show how we had some very bad tendencies ourselves.
What happened was a despicable act, and those guilty need to be found, but don't pretend that we as Americans would never resort to the same type of activity, it's human beings who do this sort of sick thing, not nationalities.
If I ran this country...we would open fire on so many of those worthless @#%$. Hell I would declare a holy war against all extremist islamics and ask them to all meet up in the middle of a big open desert and just fly in air strikes and send them straight to allah.
The news footage was actually a little bit relieving. For starters, there were not a huge crowd of people out there cheering them on; most of the people stayed probably 300 feet back near the buildings just wondering wtf was going on.
I just think they should hammer down on the sunni triangle, these were the people that never wanted to see saddam go. Edited by: Bondori Zafiro at: 4/1/04 6:22 pm
I don't see how having your dead body mutilated by a mob and having your dead body mutilated by a 2,000 pound LGB is that much different? Maybe someone would like to elaborate. How does a group of people fight their oppressors when their oppressors have modern weapons and the rebels only have a few small arms? There's two ways. One is nonviolent resistance. The other is terrorism and guerilla activities. You have to understand that to these people, terrorism is to them their only way to go about it. They see destruction of American forces as the only way to get rid of them, not through belligerent nonviolence.
Quote:Can you link me to a news article where there were hundreds of people partying in the streets after they murdered Matthew Shepard? THAT is the difference here. I'm not talking about hate crimes perpetrated by a few people, but hate crimes where people celebrate.
Phelps and his crew seem to enjoy shouting out to high heaven about Shepard and other gays dying: www.fortwayne.com/mld/for...682634.htm . Sure, it's not partying, but it's damn close enough.
Quote:Post 9/11 and after this there were thousands/hundreds of people partying in the streets. How is one to think of these monsters as anything other than subhuman?
Remember that video from an AC-130 gunship killing Taliban members? Remember all the comments that went generally like "Haha, yeah, kill em!" "Wow, that looked awesome." Is there 100 % verification that every single person that was hit was a Taliban/Al-Qaeda member? So for all you know, many people here probably celebrated the deaths of innocent civilians? And you have to also consider that to these people, they are fighting a war with America, of course they're gonna celebrate a monumental strike on their enemy. But to call them subhuman is errant and rather imperial of you. You're no more human than they are, you've just grown up with a different set of morals and experiences.
Quote:Yeah, all in black and white. It's like bringing up the crusades in the argument as well. Try something current, both of my examples are within the last five years.
Except that the Arab world (And most of Africa, Asia, and South America) are still coping with an immense technological growth that's occured practically within the last 100 years, going from swords to automatic weapons, camel to Land Rover, candle to halogen lights. You have a situation where these ancient and relatively unchanged cultures are mixing with modern technology. If Europeans and Americans had gone through that much change as quickly as some of these populations did, I don't think we'd exactly have our most obviously superior (/sarcasm off) morals.
Quote:If I ran this country...we would open fire on so many of those worthless @#%$. Hell I would declare a holy war against all extremist islamics and ask them to all meet up in the middle of a big open desert and just fly in air strikes and send them straight to allah.
And I'm glad you don't run this country, you'd probably get us all killed. We have enough people wanting to destroy us as is.
There is a difference. It may not always be as significant as we here in the US believe. But the difference is there.
And yes anyone that could commit an act like this is subhuman wherever they live. There is no argument that could convince anyone otherwise. There is no justification. Feel free to substitute less evolved, less morally advanced, less socially advanced, etc., but subhuman works for me.
Behave like an animal, expect to be called an animal, and very possibly treated like one. Just hope that where you are they treat animals humanely.
Quote:How does a group of people fight their oppressors when their oppressors have modern weapons and the rebels only have a few small arms? There's two ways. One is nonviolent resistance. The other is terrorism and guerilla activities. You have to understand that to these people, terrorism is to them their only way to go about it.
Oh ok, that was my problem, I just wasn't understanding the terrorist. Now it makes this so much better, and I feel that beating the dead corpses with a metal pole and stringing their charred bodies above a bridge while chanting anti-American slogans is perfectly a-o-k. It's the way "these people" do things, right?
Quote:And I'm glad you don't run this country, you'd probably get us all killed. We have enough people wanting to destroy us as is.
That is why I want all the people who wanna kill us in one spot....so I can off them much easier. Hey...it isn't humane or partically sane but what can ya do. Quick solution to a big problem.
Quote:There is a difference. It may not always be as significant as we here in the US believe. But the difference is there.
Where is this difference? (and what difference are you talking about, I'm not quite clear.)
Quote:And yes anyone that could commit an act like this is subhuman wherever they live. There is no argument that could convince anyone otherwise. There is no justification. Feel free to substitute less evolved, less morally advanced, less socially advanced, etc., but subhuman works for me.
Behave like an animal, expect to be called an animal, and very possibly treated like one. Just hope that where you are they treat animals humanely.
Sorry, calling another human subhuman flies in the face of ignorance and hypocrisy. For one thing, Americans, and especially those which hold your value set, are in the small minority of the human race. If anything, you are less human than the average. Secondly, just because you hold your moral values doesn't make it right. Just like if someone had higher morals than you and chastised you for it, surely you'd defend it saying that it doesn't make you any less human for it. Again, what makes a human but a specific DNA type? Morality is not universal, black and white, good and evil. You're just espousing the beliefs of moral imperialism.
Oh, and you behave like an animal. You eat, breathe, urinate, defecate, move, show happiness, sadness, energy and lethargy. Should we treat you like an animal?
Quote:Oh ok, that was my problem, I just wasn't understanding the terrorist. Now it makes this so much better, and I feel that beating the dead corpses with a metal pole and stringing their charred bodies above a bridge while chanting anti-American slogans is perfectly a-o-k. It's the way "these people" do things, right?
And your attitude will never cure terrorism in any of its forms. I don't doubt that if you were pushed into a corner by much larger foes you would not result to cheap tactics to gain an edge. It's exactly the same thing that these people are doing. The only thing I can gather from your attitude is you feel that the fight between the US Army and the Iraqi freedom fighters (fun to throw that term around) is a fair one? Alas, at least it got your attention, maybe you can start educating yourself about the plight of these peoples and why they may be motivated to fight the US Army in their homeland. But your right, we should just kill them if they don't like us, why bother to think why it is that way. And that moon sure is scary, let's throw rocks at it.
. . . Uh, those were in the part where you said the penalty for one american murder should be the execution of ten foreigners.
>>I'm guessing I had a much different childhood than Boot Disk, or my schoolmates parents had fewer guns.
Whatever. Don't deny it. Teenagers fight and teenagers get killed. There's a fifteen-year-old girl in my county on trial right now for murdering a sixteen-year-old boy. Do you think it started with the hammer he was beaten to death with? My best friend was stabbed in the back while he was at school. (Thank God he survived.)
The difference between killing someone with a bomb and killing someone with a gun is slight yes. The beating of said body, burning it, dismembering it, dragging it through the streets, and hanging it from a bridge, is where the difference lies.
I'm quite happy to be considered a moral imperialist if I am considered such because I can see the difference.
As far as the animal comparison. True, by your definition, we are all animals. If anything I am insulting the animal kingdom by comparing these "people" with animals. My use of the word human seemed to confuse you. I meant these people were acting beneath any human moral standard. You're right this doesn't make them animals, it makes them monsters that defy categorizing.
Quote:The only thing I can gather from your attitude is you feel that the fight between the US Army and the Iraqi freedom fighters (fun to throw that term around) is a fair one? Alas, at least it got your attention, maybe you can start educating yourself about the plight of these peoples and why they may be motivated to fight the US Army in their homeland. But your right, we should just kill them if they don't like us, why bother to think why it is that way.
Your attitude reeks with anti-American sentiment, so I'm not going to argue with you beyond this post. Firstly I never said anything about killing anybody responsible for this. Stringing dead corpses up over a bridge with the excuse "we hate Americanís this much" does not equal freedom fighting unless you take into the consideration of a small sect in the Sunni triangle who wants nothing more than to see the west destroyed. The civilians were not oppressors; these weren't god damn marines with M-16's. They weren't killed because they were causing trouble in Iraq, they were gruesome murdered and had their corpses desecrated because they were American and in the wrong place at the wrong time.
You strike me as the same kind of person who believes blowing themselves up in a bus full of children, women, and elderly are just "freedom fighting." They aren't terrorist, they are just misunderstood, right? Or even launching missiles from attack helicopters to kill hamas leaders and whoever might be standing by is okay too. Or, if you're like me, you think they are both wrong.
The only freedom these men were fighting for was that of their sect, not that of Iraq (which is what you seem to believe).
Since the sick bastages who committed these atrocities were caught on camera, don't we have a good chance of finding and arresting them?
(I have no idea, I don't know the population of Fallujah or how hard it would be to track them down....)
Ciba, you pointed out that the lynchings were a long time ago, well I tend to forget that anything over 50 years in this country is treated like the Dead Sea Scrolls, but that aside think about how long we have been a country versus some of the other nations we point at. Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, large portions of Iraq were home to desert nomads. You can't expect civilization to sink it's roots so very deep in less than a hundred years. They were living under the Ottoman Empire, not known for it's libertarian ideals. Give them time, and they will come around, but they will do their share of bloody deed in the meantine. We have done so, and still haven't shaken the atavistic monkey off our back, despite a representative democracy, government funded schools ect.
How many inhumane things do we hear about every week and shrug off because we're used to hearing about them? Cannibalistic serial murders, abusive parents, stalker ex boyfriends, mothers who stone their children, rapists, thieves who take elderly peoples life savings, fake doctors who prescribe deadly medicines. Like I said, the people who did it are scum, and they deserve to be punished, but don't make a blanket judgement on an entire populace.
Marbh, would you oppose us turning the sunni triangle into dresden 2.0?
Marbh, you seem to be intentionally missing my point. Islamic cultures seem to cultivate violence. In western culture, for every person you have espousing violence, there are just as many, if not more, publicly decrying it. Where are the Islamic leaders denouncing this? This type of @#%$ is glorified on Al Jazeera. In these islamic cultures, there is a serious lack of opposition to these violent acts.
While I agree that we have had our share of animals in our country. It doesn't mean these people are any more human. Edited by: Ciba at: 4/2/04 11:26 am
The fact that the most recent incidents of subhuman behavior on a mass scale happen to have involved Islamists hardly means only Islamists are capable of subhuman activities, or that they alone deserve to be treated differently for not according proper 'respect' to other cultures.
The most debased movement active today is, without a doubt, not Al-Qaeda or HAMAS or Baathists or any other Islamist movement. It's a Christian rebel group operating in Northern Uganda.
The Lord's Resistance Army is thought to be responsible for the kidnapping and enslavement of nearly 30,000 people - the vast majority children of all ages - since the mid 90s for use as soldiers and concubines, often both. They're also responsible for the ongoing genocide of the Acholi cultural group of Uganda/Sudan, not coincidentally the cultural group of most of the combatants. The reason? They're insufficiently supportive of the rebels. Oh, and they kill nuns and priests on sight, again for being insufficiently supportive.
If they're still too third world for you, there's also Aum Shinri Kyo, who, admittedly, have been much reduced in stature since the Tokyo subway sarin gas attack they orchestrated in 1995. They only killed 12 people in those attacks, but they had enough sarin to kill millions, as well as a Russian military helicopter investigators suspected they intended to use as a delivery platform. Even scarier, while speculation they were the first non-governmental group to detonate a nuclear device is just speculation, they were certainly working towards that goal, having recruited multiple ex-Soviet weapons scientists and a staggering number of physicists.
In Peru, Shining Path and Tupac Amaru are estimated to have killed over 30,000 since the early 80s. Shining Path, thought to have been all but eradicated in the early 90s, is staging a strong comeback, as evidenced by the resurgence in dismemberment by machete, their signature.
And if you suppose these are different because they were cheering corpses, and not merely producing them, I suggest you re-evaluate.
Ciba, you are again intentionally trying to tar me with slander and misrepresent my arguments. I didn't say I loved "these" people. I said they were terrible in what they did. But I also refuse to hate all Arabs because of what the Baathist and fundamentalist terrorist folks are doing. By your logic, should I hate the interim government? They're arabs. If it's Islam I'm supposed to hate should I take down the old Turkish lady who lives in my neighborhood? How about those Black Muslim dudes on campus? No. I prefer to hate people on a much more selct and small scale basis. I hate Al Qaeda, I hate Islamic Jihad, I hate Hezbollah. By the same token I hate the Basque Sepratists, KKK, Catholic and Protestat Paramilitaries, the innumerable left and right wing militias in subsaharan africa, the right and left wing rebels who butcher people in south america, the tamil tigers, the Kashmir terrorists, the Phillipine kidnappers, and many, many other groups of violent extremists. Considering how many millions, soon to be billions of islamic people in the world, the number who have ever done a crime based on their religion is extremely small. I for one am hoping that Islam goes into a reformast stage sometime in the future, much like our Protestant reformation, and emerges a less dogmatic religion, but only time will tell. Of course splintering into all those different factions didn't cure our problems either did it?
Yalum, we have taken great care to bury victims of our attacks. While we advertise that they were killed, we weren't so savage as to parade around with the bodies.
Quote:you are again intentionally trying to tar me with slander and misrepresent my arguments.
Marbh, I'm doing no such thing. I do not hate Arabs. I do not hate muslims. I DO believe that muslims have a tendancy towards violence that I don't understand. This obviously does not mean that all muslims are violent. This doesn't even mean most muslims are violent.
Hate is a little strong for what I feel. It is more a sense of wonder at why these fundamentalists have their violent tendancies.
Quote:. . . Uh, those were in the part where you said the penalty for one American murder should be the execution of ten foreigners.So boot, please enlighten me to exactly where I said 10 foreigners!!! There were NO racial undertones there period.
If they want us out of their country then fine withdraw. But damn skippy if they attack us then we attack back with a vengeance. Nothing to do with race, creed or any other BS you want to try and imply in my statement.
And btw "they" is for who ever in the heck attacks us! So in a way I guess I could be a racist. I cannot stand anyone that thinks terrorism is the way to get stuff solved! (so what is that Anti-terrorist racism?) I don't blame a race of people for what extremist groups do. But if an extremist group takes out innocent Americans then by god I don't care who gets hurt in the retribution, for one simple reason; If innocents on their side get killed then maybe they will think next time about who they are letting run their country. (and by that i mean speak for their country via terrorism)
And you can say what you want about retribution not working but we have the bigger guns and we are losing people now as we speak so we might as well make the punishment fit the crime!
I will put it this way. I dont think we should be over there in the first place but I stand behind our troops and wish them all a safe return!
Any tendency towards violence that Muslims have has been learned from the Europeans, starting with the Crusades. I don't have the desire to derail the thread, so I'll just leave it at the fact that Middle Eastern society was the most inclusive in the world, and the most peaceful, compared to the other advanced civilizations, before the crusades.
However, I don't think Muslims in general are any more prone to violence than any other religion. You have to look at the society that those committing violent acts are coming from. They are largely extremely repressive societies. Often, outsiders are presented as the enemy, to deflect attention to the inadequacies of their own government. The US is a popular target, since it is so visible. Different segments of Islam are often encouraged to conflict, again to deflect attention from the government's shortcomings.
Anyplace where people are poor, repressed, and convinced that their troubles are caused by their "enemies," then you have a recipe for violence similiar to what we have in Iraq.
Ciba, you made a statement, "sinc you love those people" which was a clear attempt to lump me as a sympathizer. It was cheap, and beneath you. If you dont see it, I'm sorry, but it was there.
The problem with retaliation, is that rarely are the actual people who did the deed punished, which means innocent people get killed, which fules the extremists arguments and recruitment. We need to investigate this fully, identify the participants via video and researched witness testimony, then have the Iraqi Council put them on trial. Fallujah is a powder keg, so we don't want to go in with a flamethrower.
Isn't treating terrorist attacks like this as mere law enforcement issues through the 90s what led to 9/11 in the first place? WTC Bombing, Nothing. Somalia, Nothing. Cole, Nothing. 2 Embassies blown up, nothing.
Yeah, lets try doing nothing and see if that stops it.
Marbh: Insult removed (prior post). I understand how you read it that way, but I didn't intend for it to be read that way.
Quote:However, I don't think Muslims in general are any more prone to violence than any other religion.
Christianity doesn't set the expection that you'll get X number of virgins in paradise if you blow yourself up in a cafe or around a busload of children.
I agree that the violence is much more common in countries with oppressive governments. Western muslims are much more peaceful than their palestinian counterparts. Do you really deny that prospects of martyrdom contribute to violent actions?
This thread is hilarious. Not the original event which is merely a sad reminder of the continuing loss of life in Iraq that shows no sign of abating.
Quote:I honestly don't know how you go about combatting ignorance and religious zealotism without trampling all over the rights we in this country cherish.
A good start would be to vote out a born-again president that spreads disinformation, and his Attorney-General with him.
Quote:These weren't US combatants; they were US contractors who were just there to repair the country.
They were soldiers-for-hire. More about Blackwater Mercenaries.
Quote: Islamic cultures seem to cultivate violence.
ROFL. Open your eyes. Look around you. Turn on the TV set (or don't). Read some (real) history of christianity. It blows my mind that people can convince themselves Iraqis are the aggressors in this conflict.
Quote:Yalum, we have taken great care to bury victims of our attacks. While we advertise that they were killed, we weren't so savage as to parade around with the bodies.
Actually we paraded Saddam's sons in the media for much the same purpose: to demoralize the enemy.