If you were President Vladimir Putin how would you deal with this situation?
I liked how they dealt with the Theater crisis, even though they killed a lot of the hostages. This is pretty much a no win situation. You have to take a risk and try to save as many hostages as you can and also capture all the terrorists. Giving in is absolutely not an option.
Using no way as way.
Having no limitation as limitation.
- Bruce Lee
Ps ... any group or individual that would threaten to kill children to further their political ideals is not human. There is no punishment that would not be justified in this case. The humane way would be execution. But publicly skinning them alive sounds more reasonable to me. There are lines you simply do not cross no matter how miserably oppressed your people are.
Well if the russians continue to say their own citizens are Al Queda terrorists and use that as an excuse to massarcre to them, it is only going to get worse.
The recent plane bombings have not been offically linked to the Chechen rebels, but there were 2 chechen females on board and the ladies have been used as suicide bobmers before.
the "other top candidate" was in no position to be commanding a nation at the time,
nor did he have the same civil obligations as GW when that happened....
if the roles were reversed, I'm sure he would have acted a lot more responsibly, and figured out something to do on his own instead of waiting for his one of his advisors to tell him what to do like they always do.
If my history memory serves me, Israel has this policy of giving nothing to hostages, and I think they make every single person a member of the military (so they can say there weren't any civillian casualties).
So basically, if you are a terrorist/kidnapper, your ass is going to fry.
Yes, they are kids, but if the country has a history of not putting up with crap like this (Russia does not have this history) then the area would not be in a situation like this in the first place.
But I digress.
I wonder if this is tied to the plane crashes? I honestly haven't been paying much attention to the media regarding that. Been having too much fun playing paintball with my relatives
EDIT: Apparently there was a bombing after the plane crashes and the same group took responsibility. No leads as to whether they are all connected though.
Ps ... any group or individual that would threaten to kill children to further their political ideals is not human. There is no punishment that would not be justified in this case.
I'm no too familiar with how the Russians handle hostage situations, but there seems to be a few logical options:
- Storm the place, shoot everyone who's over 4 feet tall and ask questions later.
- Wait it out and hope for the best. (most likely leads to all the hostages being executed)
- Give into the terrorists and let their buddies go.
- Give into the terrorists and let their buddies go... then shoot them all once they come outside.
didn't mean to hijack ;p
[edit]
I really don't think Putin is just going to give into these demands... I've never actually heard of a case where all of the terrorists' demands were actualized, and they got away scott-free...
I guess this is going to boil down to what he wants his primary accomplishment to be:
-Save the children, at all costs
-Kill or bring the terrorists to justice, or
-Settle this as fast as possible to avoid attracting too much attention or losing lives.
Storm the place, shoot everyone who's over 4 feet tall and ask questions later.
Violence is the best and ONLY answer. Don't ask for what they want, don't negociate, don't give them any warning. Just kill them to the last person. Show them the exact same respect they are showing you and those kids.
The problem with just storming the place R4kin is that if the team that does it doesn't kill them all RIGHT AWAY, they will blow themselves up and take several children most likely with them. Even idealogical terrorists (Red Faction, PIRA, Marxist's terrorists in general etc etc) want to live and don't wear Semtex jackets or whatever. In this case, the higher the body count (forgive the crude language), the worse the political results will be. But how do you get the hostages out, if you can't kill them? Basically, its the ultimate nightmare scenario for Russia's FBI equivalent or any government for that matter.
I really thought this would be an interesting topic. The terrorists have threatened this...
- blow up the building if police storm it.
- threatened ``for every destroyed fighter, they will kill 50 children and for every injured fighter - 20 (children)
They have ...
- forced children to stand at the windows
- killed or injured up to nine people
- militants wearing suicide-bombs
There demands ...
- the freedom of fighters detained over a series of attacks on police facilities in neighboring Ingushetia in June
- talks with regional officials and a well-known pediatrician, Leonid Roshal, who aided hostages during the deadly seizure of a Moscow theater
There are 17 terrorists and they are holding all 400 captives in the schools Gym.
What do you do?
This is very very similar to the Moscow theater incident except now there are children involved. If you aren't aware of how they handled the Theater incident, they injected a colorless odorless gas into the theater that caused everyone to pass out nearly immediately. However, they were not prepared on the scene to revive the hostages and many died on the way to or at the hospital because of the gas. I believe all the terrorists were killed either by the gas or by gun shot wounds while unconscious. The gas kept them from activating the explosives they had on their bodies.
This time however the lives of 200 children are at stake in addition to 200 adults.
If I were dictator in this same situation I'd tell the terrorists for every child that dies because of what you are doing today we will execute 5 fighters we are currently detaining. Take it one step further. Round up the families of those terrorists ... I know, sounds harsh, but if I were a dictator I'd play whatever card I could find. I'd offer amnesty if they surrendered and didn't harm any more children. (with tracking leg cuffs for the rest of their lives.) And if their decision took too long I'd probably use the gas they used before and storm the place. And if any children died once the incident was over, I'd follow through with the executions publicly and allow the parents to perform them. And any terrorists that survives the attack would be executed last.
Sadly civilized governments don't usually have these options. So ... what do you do?
I'd take the best route to rescue the children. And then kill one of the terrorists AND one of the jailed prisoners for every child that died. My opinion is that we play fairly with anyone that plays fairly with us. Those people who do **** like this and don't abide by international treaties? **** them.
its one of those damned if you do, damned if you don't things.
if you rush in, you risk killing allot of people, some inocent and still having them blow them self up.
If you don't rush in you riskl letting them kill lots of kids, aka political suicide.
if you give in to them your letting more of the same type people out, who will almost certainly make more of the same type problem.
What would I do?
It is obvious the terrorists are in control. They bribe russian soldiers to pass into security checkpoints.. An army of soldiers with loyalty to the highest bidder? You can't defend your country with rakes like that. There are other major problems with the russian goverment. Thousands Chechen citizens live in slums with runninng water or electricity and no jobs to support themselves or their families.
The Chechen rebels also are divded and different factions have been to known to fight with each other. Free elections are held but they are tainted with accusations of fraud and bribery.
If Putin is asking the UN for help with "terrorist forces", why doesn't he ask for help for his people? Why in the world would their goverment even think of passing a bill like this when they are turmoil.
The upper house of Parliament approved a bill on Sunday that would end an array of Soviet-era benefits, including free transportation and medicine, for some of Russia's most impoverished and vulnerable people, including World War II.
Restore basic services, unfiy the rebels so their is atleast a stable environemnt, accept some concessions so they can begin to atleast negtitate towards peace. Once that happens the real talks can talk about a seprate Chechen state. That is another can of worms, but he must take all steps to end the suffering of everyone involved.
Strong handed military action has not helped in the past and brining in UN forces.....Un forces.....
****
These are the same UN forces that are protecting refugess in Sudan. The same UN forces that allowed for more than 100 women and children to be brutally hacked to death while in a UN camp.
Not to hijack, but I do agree with the republicans that the UN is seriously lacking in any kind of ....global authority.
So, bringing in international forces to fight a hardend and well armed opponnent that has the advantage, that is not going to work. These are his own citizens, they want to leave but now that makes terrorists? Screw that logic.
Excellent response Wix. Those may be the true demands of the terrorists without them really knowing it. Simply respecting that portion of the population and offering to correct certain civil imbalances could dissolve and resolve the situation in the long run.
However, these people have murdered many "civilians" in their quest to be heard. Wouldn't it be unjust at this point in time to let them retain their freedom? They are working outside the governmental framework and no longer really have a right to be heard. They must now completely overthrow the government to win that right. There can be no pardons now after the steps they have taken. Killing political figures, military figures, etc. is understandable and possibly forgivable since they truly are at war, however targeting civilians and children intentionally is no longer an acceptable form of warfare (if it ever was).
(Not saying you were implying letting them go or anything. Just describing the current situation.)
I'd probably take up a policy I've wanted to see go into action for a very long time and start issuing out death certificates for the hostages. Declare any hostage legally dead until such a time as they are proven alive, then send in forces to bring the murderers to justice. If hostages survive, great! Revoke his death certificate and halleluja, he lives! If not, well y'know, giving stuff to people who demand it with violence, or even trying to be delicate with people who are demanding things with violence does not set a good example. Try it with kids, see how long before the other kids pick up on it and start using violence to get their way too. (And don't blame me when child welfare comes knocking on your door after the results of that experiment)
Really, if hostages were treated as casualties from the moment they're taken hostage do you think there would be any point to taking hostages as ways of making demands? And don't give me ******** that then the hostage takers would just start killing instead, ain't no one forcing people to go murder others despite what Hollywood movies might say on that subject. Kind of people who'd take to murdering as an alternative to hostage taking aren't the kind of people who would have stopped just short of killing someone before. Unless you were willing to let them bully you that is and just take it up the crack without lube. Besides, it doesn't seem to be stopping them now. There's been how big of a decrease in hostage taking in general since certain sissy girly men started giving in to demands? It might mean lives in the short term yes, but once it became clear it wasn't going to work... it takes a special kind of stupid to keep repeating tactics that aren't working.
the "other top candidate" was in no position to be commanding a nation at the time,
nor did he have the same civil obligations as GW when that happened....
if the roles were reversed, I'm sure he would have acted a lot more responsibly, and figured out something to do on his own instead of waiting for his one of his advisors to tell him what to do like they always do.
Oh, you mean like Clinton and his "crew" (which included "the other top candidate") did back when the WTC was attacked the first time?
Dammit! I'm sorry, sorry, I'm feeding the troll. I really did try to resist but I was chuckling so much I broke down. I'm sorry, I'm weak willed. :(
you know i had a idea. So how villainous would i be if i said to take the people they demand be released and strap a bomb to them and stick them in front of the school, Then demand they release the children or watch their friends blow up? but id be sadistic, and put the bomb only on like the legs and lower torso so they watched the person go slowly, yo know the vietcong style of blow the legs of in a painfully way and let them bleed to eath in great agony.
Actually, if I were Putin, I would personally go to the site. Request the leader of the terrorist group come out alone and sit down and have a serious discussion about the over all demands, try to find some middle ground to compromise on, and if successful follow through with the agreement. If there ended up being no middle ground where bloodshed could be averted, I would send in my troops with him outside. And if any children died I'd shoot him myself right there.
I hadn't heard about how they handled the Theatre incident, thats a pretty good idea that i hadn't considered. Hopefully they do something similar and have enough paramedics this time.
Actually, if I were Putin, I would personally go to the site. Request the leader of the terrorist group come out alone and sit down and have a serious discussion about the over all demands, try to find some middle ground to compromise on, and if successful follow through with the agreement.
But once you open that Pandora's box, it'll only invite other terrorists to do the same because then they'll know you're at least willing to negotiate with them.
I'm not sure negotiating is the same as giving in to demands. Talking the terrorists into giving up their position to save lives seems prudent to me. Simply rolling over and giving in would be bad. But when 400 lives are at stake not even attempting to negotiate a way out of the situation is irresponsible. Without talking you may never discover a peaceful way to resolve the issue. The trick is not being afraid to draw the line and eliminate the situation by force when negotiations fail. Negotiations could actually keep this sort of thing from happening again. Open communication usually leads to better understanding which leads to peace. Closed communication leads simply to war. These terrorists are completely comfortable with randomly killing people. Negotiating here could conceivably stop that cycle. Of course it may not, but after you've chatted you always still have the option of leveling the entire building if necessary. Which an attack by force in this situation is very likely to do. This is also an opportunity for Putin politically to help his position. If he is able to negotiate a way out of the situation and not actually give in to their demands, (which I think is very possible) he will be a hero. If he negotiates and fails, and after that children die, people will blame the terrorists, not Putin. Again he will be better off politically. If he simply goes in with the no negotiation policy he will be blamed for those deaths and politically he will have serious problems.
Edit: Also, I'd secretly video tape the negotiations. You never know how much those tapes could help your position if things go badly when negotiations fail. If the terrorist looks like a psychopath you'll be in great shape. If you look bad you just burn them along with the terrorist leader.
If I recall the rebels did have themselves wired to explosives during the theater incident, that wasn't a bluff. I'm sure they are prepared for a nerve gas attack as well. This will probably turn out quite bad.
The thing to do will probably be to cordone a one mile radius, turn off the power and do a siege. Blackout the media so they cannot get their desired effect by killing hostages. Wait for an opening like they did in the theater, or starve them into submission.
This kind of thing makes me glad to live here. Apparently Bush offered assistance, which I think was the right thing to do, but they didn't request it. Wonder where this will go. Either way, I don't think they are equipped to deal with a crisis of this magnitude. They don't have the special forces like we do (or they?).
Really though, what could be done if the terrorists are bound and determined to follow through with their plan? All I see is a bunch of dead kids.
Yet a UN security council resolution backing Russia's right to take military action to secure its population from the terrorist threat would silence critics of its continuing military actions in Chechnya.
So Russia calls for UN's backing when children are being held hostage by terrorists but Bush sends a big middle finger when America is attacked by people not even related to his target... hmmm.
Despite a possible motive just to achieve an image, I think the Russian government is doing a good thing. If they went in and just pulverized Chechnya, it would send a terrible image to the people and even create more conflict. Despite poor views of Putin, I think he's handling this the best way he can.
Sadly civilized governments don't usually have these options.
After seeing how the Putin re-election was run, I'm not convinced that Russia is a civilized government.
That said, there is no way those guys are leaving alive. Since using the gas last time failed, I doubt they'll use it again. They'll probably send troops in, and hope that they can kill the terrorists before they kill the kids.
Despite a possible motive just to achieve an image, I think the Russian government is doing a good thing. If they went in and just pulverized Chechnya,
pulverized chechnya ? didn't they do that like 3 time already , hell the old capital is ruins and we see where that got them
its just a PR stunt asking for UN backing , they never asked for it , putin never cared for it
Two cars moved closer in the building and the chechens fired rpgs at the vehicles, missing both. Also, 26 women and children were released from the school.
Tell that to the families of the 7 dead. "Uh excuse me but we decided to storm the building, we got most of the baddies, but in the process we killed your daughter. Very sorry, have a nice day"
Bloody hell, you would think that they could do better then just go in guns blazing.
Edit: Wtf damn piece of **** text isnt converting from post properly
this just makes me sick. Apparently kids tried to run from the school and the ****ers shot them down...I really wish torture were acceptable punishment for certain crimes, because death is just WAAAY to easy for these twisted ****ers.
We won't know the real stats (bodycount, etc) for a few days or more probably, but so far it seems like they did as well as they could, given the FUBARed situation.
Some news services are claiming up to 100 dead or more. At least the Russians are consistent. Be labeled a terrorist, do something against them, get a death sentence executed on the spot.
It's not over yet Let's just hope the body count isn't as high as they think.
Tell that to the families of the 7 dead. "Uh excuse me but we decided to storm the building, we got most of the baddies, but in the process we killed your daughter. Very sorry, have a nice day"
Just so you know, the children started running away from the gym when there was an explosion on the other side of the school and the hostage takers opened fire on the children! spurring the russians to return fire and rush in.
Agreed. It was a worst case scenario the moment the rebels took the school. Compared to what they threatened and the way the storming was executed, casualities were minimal.
You do not negotiate with the lunatic frindge or they come back hungrier and more frequently. Hopefully they will be dealt with cold war style. They are not worthy of justice.
Wow, I hadn't thought of that, Ponzi...assuming the prisoners were truly guilty, that sounds like a nice deterrent to this kind of hostage-taking/kidnapping **** that's becoming all too common.
People are right that you cannot give in to demands...sucks for the innocents involved, but it'd be FAR worse to comply.
I just wish these stupid ****ers would realize that taking hostages, no matter how innocent and weak, will NOT produce results.
Of course it doesn't help that some nations have complied when hostages were taken in Iraq...that really sucks.
What exactly are they supposed to do when they see the terrorists firing on fleeing women and children? Stand by, wish the wounded women and children good luck in dodging bullets and have a smoke? They responded to an immediate danger, as well they should have. You do not try to reason with someone who is currently attempting to shoot fleeing children. The deaths were regretable, but helluva lot less than if they'd just stood by and let them continue shooting at the fleeing hostages. Kudos to the Russians for getting at least a partial win out of a horrible situation.
Heard on the radio this morning that Russian commandoes stormed the place, saved all the children and parents, and only 13 of the rebels managed to escape.
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The hostage takers turned down all offers for food, water, and supplies. Maybe, just maybe, they didn't care one iota for the welfare of their hostages. Even if Russia caved in and met all of their demands, I don't think these terrorists would just disarm their bomb belts, let everyone go, and just leave themselves.
The problem with dealing with fundamentalists is that they don't always want to be reasoned with. If they feel that their cause would be better served with their death and the death of others, they aren't going to hesitate to try to take out as many people as possible.
These terrorists are cowards. They go after crowds of people on a bus, in a cafe, reception hall, office buildings, and even a school with children.
Once things started going South they started setting off bombs and opened fire on fleeing hostages. And some of the terrorists tried to sneak out disguised as hostages to only try to get to another location and take more hostages.
There are no alternative solutions to dealing with this. These groups want to achieve power through terror and only respond to power. Those people in the school are thanking the Russian forces because they know that is the only reason some of them are still alive.
Heard on the radio this morning that Russian commandoes stormed the place, saved all the children and parents, and only 13 of the rebels managed to escape.
13 escaping is a lot, if only 40 were estimated to have taken the hostages. Pretty sad that they could actually flee on foot.
I have Long wondered exactly what the response would be if terrorist groups did something like that here. (Well, Basically anything that targets large numbers of children.)
I'm fully expecting a momma-bear response out of Russia over this one.
The hostage takers turned down all offers for food, water, and supplies.
Thats pretty standard actually, hostage negotiators frequently put Valium or similar drugs into food they give to hostage takers to make them easier to deal with, and plus its a school so i'm sure theres a place to get their own food w/o risking getting some pepperoni and Valium pizza.
