SAN FRANCISCO, July 13 (Reuters) - The maker of the video game, Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas, said on Wednesday that hackers were responsible for a downloadable modification that enabled sexually explicit minigames to be played in the game.
The modification, which allows simulated sex in the PC version of the game, has led to an investigation by the industry ratings board.
Rockstar Games, a subsidiary of Take-Two Interactive Software, said that it was investigating ways to increase the security protection of the source code and prevent the game from being altered.
A day ago Rockstar was completely denying they coded the sex scenes in the first place. Are they changing their story trying to say that hackers created a piece of code that "unlocked" the sex scenes that were already on the CD?
So basically they are admitting to the scenes, but denying they are part of the finished game. Why were they not deleted? Surely someone should have known that this would probably got them an Adult rating (which a lot of game stores refuse to carry).
Will this have any effect on other games that are easily modded (Morrowind or NWN)?
And can anyone actually sue (and win) seeing that there is NO way to play the sex scenes without a piece of code that was not created by Rockstar.
Will this have any effect on other games that are easily modded (Morrowind or NWN)?
ABF
Dude, where you been? there's an entire module based on sex in NWN. It's in the Hall of Fame. It was written by a woman a few years back. They rated it adult, but there's no need to hack the code. They even have naked hak packs listed. The modules funny, but gets old fast.
It's titled:
Sex & The Single Adventuress
Score: 8.23 / Votes: 155)
Sex themed humerous adventure for a high level female PC. Warning includes a lot of cartoon sex, cartoon nudity, and crude language. If you are at all prudish - do not download this module.
Now, as for this game, it's up to parents to police it. I thought this one already had an adult rating?
The modification, which allows simulated sex in the PC version of the game, has led to an investigation by the industry ratings board.
Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas - it's about stealing cars, why would a parent ever think it's ok for their kid to play it without talking to the kid about the differnces between games and reality? GTA has always been about adult themes - you are running over people with cars, using guns, hookers on the street, etc. It's not like a Tom Clancey game where it's you verses a bad guy. In GTA you are the bad guy, so to speak.
edit to add: Play Phantasmagoria - it was banned in several countries. You could play it mild or adult. It had a rape scene. BTW - it was appropriate for the game story itself and no worse than any movie. I recommend this game to any one who likes puzzle/horror theme. It very dated though as it was released in 1995.
You can pick up a hooker in GTA:SA, park, and the camera pans around while the car bounces a little bit, and you hear muffled voices saying stuff like "oh yeah" and "whos your daddy". That's as far as the original design went. There's no button mashing to make him hump faster. It's on the PC...some 11 year old probably download the hack and his mom saw it. Rockstar hasn't done anything wrong.
So yeah, I guess you're reading it wrong. But then again, I guess you haven't played GTA:SA. They back pedaled because you can loosely construe what they originally did as some sort of sex minigame.
chmod said:
I don't want to live in a world where there are no consequences for being stupid. A few thousand years ago these users would have been eaten by lions.
The issue isn't that the content was created for the game, the issue is whether it was originally in the game by the developers or not. This is all coming to head with separate investigations in Australia and the US (with Australia being much more concerned about this type of thing).
With NWN and Morrowind, that stuff is community created content. IF the 'sex module' was built into NWN (by the developer) and only had to be unlocked by putting in a password or something (idkfa) then it would be similiar to the GTA issue. NWN would then have to sell with a 'Mature' rating because of the possibility that this content could be accessed off the disk.
Basically, if it turns out that Rockstar actually had these sex mini-games in the game but 'turned them off' to get a lower rating (and still included them... even hidden somewhere with no code to access them), they could be in big trouble.
It's their @#$% game. So what if they created sex scenes in the game. They locked them with no way to play them.
The only way to play the sex scenes is to download a modification called Hot Coffee v2. I am also pretty sure there was some disclaimer about the modification of the game when you first installed it.
My take on the whole deal is this,
It is ok to steal, kill, run over, blow crap up, pick up hookers, shoot cops, run drugs, be a pimp, have multiple girlfriends, have sex with half naked strippers and a whole lot of other stuff but as soon as you add a game in that allows you to see naked models and play stupid sex games THAT is to much????
I don't have Hot Coffee installed but saw a video from it and read all about it. The difference between the totally naked girls and the g-stringed stripper is one V (that is one pink v of color panted on the naked model!)
BTW, I was not ranting at anyone. It just pisses me off that we are slowly getting our freedoms taken away. So please don't think I was yelling at anyone in the thread!
It's their @#$% game. So what if they created sex scenes in the game. They locked them with no way to play them.
Legally, the game is rated based on any content included by the developer, hidden or not. Locking them or hiding them behind codes is not enough, even if it is only viewable by a software hack.
Now, what is being investigated is whether or not the content was actually there in the first place. If there was a Rockstar model and animation for a mini game of say, a couple having sex, on the original disk then Rockstar is in trouble. If the hacker modified some textures or animations in any way (to make a girl with a bikini appear naked for example), then Rockstar has nothing to worry about.
It is ok to steal, kill, run over, blow crap up, pick up hookers, shoot cops, run drugs, be a pimp, have multiple girlfriends, have sex with half naked strippers and a whole lot of other stuff but as soon as you add a game in that allows you to see naked models and play stupid sex games THAT is to much????
I gather it's very similiar to how movies are rated. A lot of those examples would be ok in a movie rated R for example, but add a few more things and it would go up to NC17 or X.
The point was that with an obviously violent game not created for people under 17 this is a @#$% bs issue. If the game was created without the "built in nudity" it still would not be a game for kids.
The game is rated M. That by default means 17+ and if you are 17+ you can already buy porn.
The point was that with an obviously violent game not created for people under 17 this is a @#$% bs issue. If the game was created without the "built in nudity" it still would not be a game for kids.
The game is rated M. That by default means 17+ and if you are 17+ you can already buy porn.
Well, that, and the whole violence vs. nudity/sex thing amuses me. People are throwing a fit about wanting the rating raised to the next level (which is Adults Only) in a game where you can carjack, blow up cars, run people over, chop up people with a chainsaw, light them on fire, decapitate, snipe, kill police, etc. I could see if they threw this in with The Sims, but c'mon is one sex scene that bad when you put it on top of all that violence?
I mean, I agree that if Rockstar did put this in, they should own up to it, but I don't think the rating should be raised because you can see some pixelated boobies.
Nocte, I think your right on that but we are not talking real porn here. It is the character model without any clothes over it. There are no nipples and nothing downstairs.
During the sex scene I saw CJ was fully dressed and there was some grinding against a girl with no clothes.
Cant, That is exactly what i said a few posts earlier about the game being so violent.
I believe that Rockstar has said it was built into the game. However they decided against it's release and there is no way to access that information from the game itself. i.e. there is no secret key combo to unlock the sex games.
The ONLY way to access it is to modify their game with a third party piece of software!
'Grand Theft' sex content reviewed
Industry group could change 'San Andreas' rating to 'Adult Only' if hidden simulated acts are found.
July 9, 2005: 10:59 AM EDT
SAN FRANCISCO (Reuters) - The industry group that sets ratings for video games is probing whether hidden features within the blockbuster title "Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas" allows players to make their characters engage in simulated explicit sex acts.
The series of criminal adventure games from Take-Two Interactive Software Inc. (Research) subsidiary Rockstar Games has been among the best selling in history, while drawing sharp criticism for encouraging gratuitous violence.
If the investigation were to lead to a rating change from M (Mature 17+) to AO (Adult Only), it could limit sales from major retail outlets.
The Entertainment Software Rating Board "has opened an investigation into the circumstances surrounding the 'Hot Coffee' modification for (the game) ... to determine if there has been a violation of ESRB Rules and Regulations requiring full disclosure of pertinent content," ratings group President Patricia Vance said in a statement.
According to enthusiast sites, loading the Hot Coffee modification on a personal computer unlocks minigames that enable users to make game characters perform sexually explicit acts.
Rockstar confirmed in an e-mailed statement the existence of the ESRB investigation and said it is complying fully.
"We also feel confident that the investigation will uphold the original rating of the game, as the work of the mod community is beyond the scope of either publishers or the ESRB," Rockstar said in the statement.
"If after a thorough and objective investigation of all the relevant facts surrounding this modification, we determine a violation of our rules has occurred, we will take appropriate action," ESRB's Vance said.
There have been instances where ESRB has discovered undisclosed content in a video game and changed a rating, said an ESRB spokesman, who declined further comment on the current investigation.
The move from the ESRB comes just days after California lawmaker Leland Yee, a Democrat from San Francisco, blasted the game for its violent and sexually explicit content.
The legislator, also a child psychologist, wants the game's rating changed to AO. In the past he has pushed for restrictions on sales of violent video games to minors.
Of the 1,036 game ratings assigned by the ESRB in 2004, fewer than 1 percent received an AO rating.
The PlayStation2 version of "Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas" was the No. 1 game of 2004, selling just over 5 million copies, according to NPD Funworld.
The point was that with an obviously violent game not created for people under 17 this is a @#$% bs issue. If the game was created without the "built in nudity" it still would not be a game for kids.
I agree with the whole social commentary on sex vs violence, etc but that's really not the issue. The ratings system is a good thing which actually helps protect video games in the long run. Instead of getting sued by 'clueless parent 8765', the game company can turn around and say "the game is rated 'M', why did you buy it for little Timmy when it is clearly marked only for people 17+?".
I realize people are getting mad at the whole 'video games are teh debil' mentality and that's not really what I was trying to address.
I'm suprised this is even an issue. Why would Rockstar leave something like that in the game, even 'locked away'? Personally I think it's due to laziness when they ported it from the console (in which this kind of hacking is obviously not much of a concern).
The only way to get to it is to install THIRD PARTY SOFTWARE.
They were rated on what was in the game and that was rated M. Sure the Sex games were included in the game but they are not playable! Reread line 2 of this post.
Biggwin I understand that, but that's not the way it works. If Rockstar has the graphics, animation, and code in there for obscene mini games (or whatever) it counts regardless of how well it was hidden or what was used to unlock it. What counts is that it's there, and that Rockstar put it there and knew it was there.
Now if the hackers added it, it wouldn't be an issue. It all depends on how they want to interpret the rules.
It's sort of an interesting story, and it will be interesting to see what happens. That doesn't change the fact that I think Rockstar is dumb for having had it in there at all, it's not like their game wasn't already pushing it in regards to the MA rating.
You're arguing about how it shouldn't be an issue when obviously it is or else this wouldn't even be news.
Legally, the game is rated based on any content included by the developer, hidden or not. Locking them or hiding them behind codes is not enough, even if it is only viewable by a software hack.
Totally not true. Stuff makes it into a game release that never gets used. Code makes it into a game that is never referenced. You are required to disclose anything in the game that you think is pertenent to the raiting board, and give them full cheat codes, etc. For example, if you do something, like a hidden cheat code that you don't tell Microsoft about, you lose your developer status with Xbox (that's the threat anyway). Who knew it was there? Not the person talking to the PEGI board or whoever raised this issue (it was in Europe, right?). Probably two people knew about it, IF this was the case, and each one thought the other one had removed it.
I seriously, seriously can not disagree more with this latest bashing of GTA. It is a great way to add fuel to the fire of ignorant politicians out for their own adjendas, the religious right and anyone else who has a bone to pick with video games. Don't you get it yet? The game is raited M. My brother worked at a GameStop, and parents will buy this game for their 14 year olds all the time. The game industry is already raiting itself, the resellers will not sell to underaged kids...the only people here to blame are the parents. And THEN to say that they lied on their ratings because someone can hack the datafiles and get to a psudo-sex-scene which is, in no way, graphic is just crazy. Are we going to have to continue to have legislation pushed on us by people who are completely ignorant?
Legally, the game is rated based on any content included by the developer, hidden or not. Locking them or hiding them behind codes is not enough, even if it is only viewable by a software hack.
Totally not true.
This issue came to a head because of the Australian rating system. Here is a quote (gamespot).
According to OFLC regulations, when a distributor applies for classification of a computer game in Australia, it is required by law to provide the Board "with access to all content within the game as well as particulars of contentious material and the means to gain access to such material."
(I did mention Australia as being the bigger concern in my original post)
Access to 'all content' seems pretty clear to me. If Rockstar failed to remember it that's Rockstar's problem.
If it weren't for the rating system, ineffective though it may be at times, then it would be even WORSE. That 'M' rating on the box is the only thing keeping back hordes of clueless parents from taking legal shots at game companies for anything wrong their kid did. The game company can now say 'So why was little Timmy playing our game when it was clearly marked as rated 'M'?'.
It's possible that Rockstar just unwittingly gave all of those fundamentalist people you complain about even more of a foothold in the fight against 'evil' video games.
Edit: I'm not saying it is a big deal either, I haven't even looked at the movies. It could be that they end up looking at them and saying 'those aren't so bad, the M rating is fine' and that's the end of it. I'm just saying that Rockstar isn't necessarily just a victim here, with a side point that the ratings system is not a bad thing.
Oh and lots of edits from me continuously messing up the quote tags to misquote people.
US senator Hillary Clinton has announced that she's to hold a press conference about the growing controversy over the Hot Coffee mod for Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas, where she will discuss possible legislative solutions to the "problem".
The former First Lady - and current presidential wannabe - will "discuss legislative solutions to keep inappropriate video game content out of the hands of young people", according to a statement from her office.
She will be joined by representatives of the National Institute on Media and the Family, the New America Foundation and the Family Violence Prevention Fund.
That's admittedly something of a step up from the company she kept the last time she took to the stage to attack Grand Theft Auto, when she was joined by Republican Senator Rick Santorum - best known for his public statements equating gay marriage with bestiality.
For its part, Rockstar is still denying that it is responsible for the Hot Coffee content - although a statement today to that effect stopped short of saying directly that the content "unlocked" by the mod is not actually present on the game discs.
"Hackers created the 'Hot Coffee' modification by disassembling and then combining, recompiling and altering the game's source code," the statement explains.
The mod is currently being investigated by both the ESRB in North America and the OFLC in Australia, with a view to deciding whether the rating originally granted to the game needs to be upgraded - or, in the case of Australia, whether the game should be banned entirely.
Meanwhile, here in the UK, the BBFC has taken the view that even if the mod can be considered as part of the game, it would not change the 18 rating granted in this territory - presumably recognising that in a game featuring the level of violence, swearing and sexually charged content that San Andreas does, a badly animated sex scene where one of the protagonists doesn't even undress is hardly the most shocking thing in the world.
According to OFLC regulations, when a distributor applies for classification of a computer game in Australia, it is required by law to provide the Board "with access to all content within the game as well as particulars of contentious material and the means to gain access to such material."
(I did mention Australia as being the bigger concern in my original post)
Access to 'all content' seems pretty clear to me. If Rockstar failed to remember it that's Rockstar's problem.
If it weren't for the rating system, ineffective though it may be at times, then it would be even WORSE. That 'M' rating on the box is the only thing keeping back hordes of clueless parents from taking legal shots at game companies for anything wrong their kid did. The game company can now say 'So why was little Timmy playing our game when it was clearly marked as rated 'M'?'.
It's possible that Rockstar just unwittingly gave all of those fundamentalist people you complain about even more of a foothold in the fight against 'evil' video games.
Edit: I'm not saying it is a big deal either, I haven't even looked at the movies. It could be that they end up looking at them and saying 'those aren't so bad, the M rating is fine' and that's the end of it. I'm just saying that Rockstar isn't necessarily just a victim here, with a side point that the ratings system is not a bad thing.
Oh and lots of edits from me continuously messing up the quote tags to misquote people.
They did give them full access to everything included in the game!
The only way to access the porn is to hack their code!
The former First Lady - and current presidential wannabe - will "discuss legislative solutions to keep inappropriate video game content out of the hands of young people", according to a statement from her office.
WTF! The games are already not allowed to sold to kids under 17. I could see some sort of enforcement but if they try to restrict my freedoms anymore I am seriously going to throw a fit and do everything in my power to fight them.
Rockstar just made a boatload more money. A game that thrives on controversy getting even more? A presidential candidate even speaking against it? That's GREAT publicity. Can't top it really.
These guys will laugh all the way to the bank, and the whole thing will be a non-issue in a few weeks.
I have San Andreas and have been playing it for a couple of weeks. I use some cheat codes but no thrid party hacks. Its a pretty violent game any way you look at it, but so are movies and TV.
While playing it I got the distinct impression that it was never PC ready. Vice-City played GREAT on the PC, but this game does not. Controls are akward, camera angles are bad, it just feels rushed. Someone at R* clearly screwed up letting the porn stuff ship on the disk. I just think they went at the PC conversion half-assed, no it looks like they are gonna have to pay for it.
I can see if someone actually created new stuff/animations and you would download a huge file to play it, but obviously this stuff was already on the disk.
There ARE computer programs with ADULT ratings. Anime porn is one of them, and obviously you cannot find that in EB or any other store. They refuse to sell that stuff.
It's hard to argue in Rockstars' defense here. I dont like censorship anymore than the next person, but its quite apparent they shipped something that should have gotten an adult rating.
I dont think you can really stop this though. They will probably be fined and sued and it will cost them a lot of money. But as soon as you open up the computer game industry, you have to ask the same questions about television and the movies....though they have some odd guidelines when it comes to sexually explicit content and what can be shown.
Computer games are relatively new media, and it looks like Rockstar is gonna take one for the team.
Yes, all the content in the game. You put your GTA disk in the drive, and you play the game. If you can't get to the content, it's not in the game. It seems pretty black & white to me.
Ther'es probably 5 textures or so on my last game that are shipped and are never used. We cut levels, cut features etc and they didn't get used, and never took them out. I really have no idea what old art is in that release, and I don't care...because you can't get to it. Chances are, this is how the GTA hack goes:
-There is art for the inside of the girlfriends building. There may have been a cut sequence, who knows.
-From what I understand this "sex scene" isn't anything uh...complicated. It's not like they have animation sets for 10 positions or something. It's pretty basic animation **** so the modders just used existing animations together and made two polygon characters bump groins. Woopy. You ever see people hump corpses in HALO multiplayer? The WoW video of the gnomes having sex (male gnome dancing, female gnome laying down)?
Seriously...this is such ********. I have never liked Hillary and her constant pandering to the RIAA and harping on violent video games. There is a long list of people I'd rather see in office, any office, than her.
i dont believe the modders created the scenes, they just unlocked them. Even the guy who created the hot coffee thing said they could lock him in a room with a GTA CD and a hex editor (or something like that) and he would unlock the scenes.
And yes, if you look at the video, there are in fact a few different animations.
Im not arguing for censorship, but it looks like R* is gonna go down for the count, or at least a large fine.
The only way the content shows up is if the game is not played as intended. I don't think Rockstar should get in trouble for something that they didn't make an option to access. The person looking at it went out of there way to get to it.
AR is a simplified memory/hex editor. If Rockstar gets in trouble for what someone can do with a hex editor to a game, it's a dangerous, dangerous precident.
Simplified answer: Game codes that tweak console games (i.e. God Mode, skip levels, go to levels, max weapons, etc.). Same as the old "cheat" days except the "coding" can be cracked and accessed fairly easily these days.
If Rockstar gets in trouble for what someone can do with a hex editor to a game, it's a dangerous, dangerous precident.
I agree it is a slippery slope that I don't think anyone wants. But Rockstar has really screwed the industry with this (potentially anyway). The content is in there and readily available. AR codes are pretty standard procedure (or at the very least, common knowledge) for most kids today. Rockstar couldn't have been naive enough to believe that this wouldn't be found.
The ratings labels were the last shield from censorship, that agreement has been broached pretty badly. This opens the door for government standards rather than industry accepted reccomendations. This is really going to effect all developers in the long run methinks.
Yes, all the content in the game. You put your GTA disk in the drive, and you play the game. If you can't get to the content, it's not in the game. It seems pretty black & white to me.
I disagree. I think all content in the game includes all textures, animations, and 'potential' areas and/or minigames that the developer didn't bother to remove. You see it as 'if I can get to it in normal gameplay, it is content'. I see it as 'if it is anywhere on the disk that shipped with the game, it is content'. If the CD happened to have a folder deep inside it full of pornographic pictures, it wouldn't be in the game you play (or at all accessible from inside the game most likely) but it should still count against the ratings, imo.
As for this unused stuff in whatever game you helped create, would it change the rating if it were included? If not, it isn't really relevant.
However if this part is true..
There is art for the inside of the girlfriends building. There may have been a cut sequence, who knows.
-From what I understand this "sex scene" isn't anything uh...complicated. It's not like they have animation sets for 10 positions or something. It's pretty basic animation @#%$ so the modders just used existing animations together and made two polygon characters bump groins. Woopy. You ever see people hump corpses in HALO multiplayer? The WoW video of the gnomes having sex (male gnome dancing, female gnome laying down)?
Then Rockstar would (and should) not be at fault at all, which I've said in just about every post I've made in this thread. There is a big difference between something Rockstar created and something hackers put together using Rockstar art and animations.
What the hell is wrong with this country anyway? Its ok to shoot gangsters and pedestrians. Its ok to steal cars and run from the police. Its ok to beat up prostitutes and steal their money. Its ok for gameplay to include the breaking of laws, but a scene that portrays pixellated sex between consenting adults is crossing the line?
If that is how these people making a fuss really feel, then we have some really messed up priorities in this country. Unfortunately, I sense something more sinister. These anti-gaming-activitists are, in my opinion, going to exploit US supposed prudishness when it comes to sex to try and start censoring video games in general.
Luckily, this movement, under the guise of the PMRC, failed when it came to the recording industry, and it will fail again.
Unfortunately, I sense something more sinister. These anti-gaming-activitists are, in my opinion, going to exploit US supposed prudishness when it comes to sex to try and start censoring video games in general.
I totally agree!
Hodurbear said:
Luckily, this movement, under the guise of the PMRC, failed when it came to the recording industry, and it will fail again.
One can only hope.
I personally am on Rockstars side. I don't think they did anything wrong. You have to modify the game to get the porn!!!!!!
Sen Hillary will hopefully get spoofed in the next GTA. She'll probably appear as a guest on the talk radio station, and maybe a mission will include using a rocket launcher on her limo.
My wife said that it was BS reguardless of what side you take.
To quote her, "I can turn it to Cinemax and watch a Rated R movie and see more than that video you showed me. You could not see (male part) going in (female part)!*" In reference to what you see in the video.
I predict there'll be a mission to deliver shipments of coke to white house and another mission to use a grenade launcher on Senator Jillary's Stretch.
Jillary will appear on the talk radio program talking about the dangers of video games.
"I think it is very important for people to realize that this game is rated "M" for mature," Vance said. "This game is not a game that was rated for children. Regardless of what if anything was modified, it's a game that the ESRB has made as clear as it can that it was not intended for anyone under the age of 17."
