I enjoyed reading the post on new ideas.
I was thinking, too bad we have to wait 2 or 3 expansions for them to give us a poison fix, it seems like poisons would be a cool way to give us more utility.

Can someone explain why it is so hard to fix. I am not a programmer and don't know any code past Basic i.e.

10 Print "Fix Poisons"
15 Goto 10

How complicated is it to have vendors in POK carry ingredients for a snare and a slow poison???????????

How complicated is it to have them work on mobs of a higher level.

Dont want level 30 Rogues to have 60% slow poisons that work on lvl 70's?
Make the ingredient level 65 required or make them need vials from GMAS etc etc

I really want to know why this is so hard.

Can a dev respond? . It seems like it can be done in a patch tommorow.

It's very frustrating when you have a post with 800 new ideas (from interesting to great) to solve a problem that imho could be fixed in a few hours. Not that we dont need new ideas and have other issues.

I say we organize a strike and refuse to pick locks or remove traps until it's done. That will show them, just think how screwed they would be. sarcasm

reamas,

There is no need for a strike to make a point. While it might work for the airline industry, it WON'T work for Rogues in EQ.

If you are a self-proclaimed non-programmer, I'm not understanding why you are railing on something of which you admittedly know little.

If you want a 'quick fix' to poison making, then your suggestion MIGHT be feasible. However, most of us who support a poison revamp are not interested in having Sony place a bunch of poison vendors in Plane of Knowledge, adjusting the resist rates, and calling it a revamp.

Let's take the Alchemy revamp as an example of a tradeskill revamp which was done well. If I'm not mistaken, you might not be familiar with what Alchemy offered prior to the revamp. To say that the Alchemy tradeskill received a MAJOR overhaul could be mistaken for the understatement of the decade. Almost every old recipe for Alchemy was removed, and newer, better recipes added ... including newer and better utilities. I choose not to get into the specifics of the revamp, other than to say that it was much needed (overdue) and well done.

Perhaps you should ask Ngreth's developer team how long that revamp took. His team sought literally tons of feedback from the Shaman (and EQ) community, and used that info to develop the revamp. It took a long time, but it was worth it in the long run. I only hope that Poison Making receives as much time and effort as Alchemy did.

I seriously doubt that you will receive much support for a stop-gap fix for poisons. Instead, I highly encourage you to drop the fatalist mindset and look forward to assisting the devs when they seek advice on ways to improve our class-defining skill. If it take two expansions to get it done right, so be it. Until then, use the poisons you have (or don't) and keep stabbing.

Luck,

Well said Kverin.


Also, adding poison vendors to the PoK to stock a never ending supply of items would be a bad idea on several levels imo. First I am still against poison ever being considered a "utility" for rogues, unless these poisons were more like a spell. Once we make them, we keep an endless supply that we can call up from our little book of poisons and dab it on our blades. While I really like this idea I doubt SOE would ever buy into it, as I am sure it would make us overpowered some how.
Second why should our utility come from something we either have to spend hours farming, or tons of pp buying items to make only to have them used up in no time.
Third I believe poisons were included into the game as an extra benefit to rogues who wanted to take the time and effort to utilize them. To me it's like the difference in buying rations and water versus spending the time and effort (or pp) to skill up baking and brewing to get worth while food and drink.

And as far as just changing the resists, any time you start messing with anything like that it is a huge undertaking. It's not like you can just go in and click a button marked "make poisons work". They would have to go in and change code for each poison, and possiblely each mob in EQ. I don't pretend to know much about that crap, but I do know enough to know none of it is easy or quick.
Make items required 65...what about other recipes that might require those items? Make the use the summoned Vials? Easier than other fixes I might think as it would be just change the recipe, but still an un-needed short term band-aid on something that at this time requires brain surgery.

Reamas..

I agree that poisons need help.. but stamping our feet and whining about it is not going to get them fixed.. I know that you are very new to our ranks and are very excited about being a Rogue, but there are many other things that need attention before poisons even get a look at. The devs have heard our pleas over the past years and things are getting somewhat better. The Devs at least know that we are unhappy and have given word that they are seriously looking into poisonmaking. Many of the other tradeskills out there also need a facelift, and in my opinion the fact that our tradeskill may get updated before them is promising.

My suggestion.. get your skill up and chill out.. when the time comes you will have the skill and can maybe use it for some good. Stop worrying so much about something that is not going to be fixed any time soon and just enjoy the game. There are a million more things out there to focus on than the poisons you put on your blade..

My epiphone on poisons came in Arcstone.

Here I was, all proud of my 250+ skill in poisoncrafting, ready to kick some undead tail with it. I was duoing with a cleric who was much stronger than I.

Pulled a fallen spirit, he proc'd 32,000.

**32,000**

It was still standing. With 18% health.

I considered my Liquid Silver poison, hitting like I think 370 or something if it took, and realized the foolishness in it all.

Haven't made poisons since.

That really puts some perspective on the situation, doesn't it? Yeah, it's an extreme example, but the point is that even our most specialized and powerful poisions are pathetic compared to other kinds of class specific procs out there. Heck, you can get augments from the DON camps that proc for about as much damage as our most powerful DD poisons, and the DON weapon augs have big negative resist adjustments to help them stick. For example, there's an aug in each camp for just 285 crystals that procs Freezing Strike IV, which is a 175 hp cold-based DD with a -200 resist adjustment so it's got a really good chance to hit. There's another in each camp that has a fire-based DD with the same kinds of stats.

Now compare the difficulty of farming up the componants to make even just a few stacks of our most powerful DD poisons to the difficulty of acquiring 285 radiant or ebon crystals. I'm pretty sure our most potent poisons are from the OOW expansion. Have you ever tried to farm the things needed to make those? You could spend months getting what you need for just a stack of the best of those poisons and you could easily use those up in less than a week. The DON augs (which have procs which are more powerful and have better resist adjusts than our poisons) you could get with a weekend of running DON missions and you'd never have to farm anything again.

How does that make any sense?

Respectfully,

The only above point I understand is that you do not want your utility tied to a PP pit.

Regarding Alchemy, you are correct, I have no knowledge of that overhaul.

However, my point is that there are easy fixes out there. I believe (I could be wrong) that what I am suggesting is not changing the entire framework of poisons needing weeks of overhaul.

Listen, if it is not difficult to do the following two things, shouldn't the devs do it.

1)Sell ingredients to poisons in POK.
2)Change resists

I do not believe you need to change every mob to change resists. While I am not a programmer, logic would say that every resist check involves a level of action (spell,skill, poison etc) and a level of reaction (Resist)

If you believe you actually have to change every mobs code for this we disagree and if you are correct I retract my original post.

I would like to hear from posters regarding
1)If you think the two changes would make a big differance
2)If making these two changes is more complicated then I am guessing
3)anything else you want to say

I really think the first two points are the key to what I am saying. If I am wrong I am wrong.

If you are a self-proclaimed non-programmer, I'm not understanding why you are railing on something of which you admittedly know little.
Thats why I am posting, to find out if these 2 changes are a huge undertaking.

I seriously doubt that you will receive much support for a stop-gap fix for poisons. Instead, I highly encourage you to drop the fatalist mindset and look forward to assisting the devs when they seek advice on ways to improve our class-defining skill.
Thats kind of what I am tryying to do, just in a complaining tone for which I apologize

but there are many other things that need attention before poisons even get a look at. The devs have heard our pleas over the past years and things are getting somewhat better
Again my point is, wouldnt the two changes I mentioned be an easy temporary fix, that wouldnt take alot of time????


Definitely did not expect that reaction

PS I love EQ and love the Rogue. I am just trying to comment to help improve it. My tone was so negative bc I think the potential the poison system has is incredible. I truly believe that it would be one of the most enjoyable additional bonus of being a Rogue. I believe it has potential to fix utility, soloing etc etc. CLEPTO had a valid point that i understand yet I still think for those who will put the time in it can be a huge bonus.

Reamas, there's so much more that needs to be done to poisons to make them a practical tool for a rogue than just changing where you find the ingredients and messing with the resists. I'd rather they spend the time to completely fix the problem than just put a bandaid on it. So put me down in the "making these two changes is more complicated than you are guessing" category along with the "if we're going to do it, lets do it right" category. If you want more info on what else needs to be improved, please read the 20 other posts that have provided significant detail on what needs improved.

Sorry, I just don't understand. Seems like the complaints I read, regarding poisons, were that people do not like farming and they are resisted too much.
Everyone keeps saying that I am suggesting a simple bandaid. There are bigger things to fix. I should stop whinning. Thats why I tried to ask you to tell me if I was oversimplifying how difficult a change it is to make (really a question for devs) or if you think this change is useless (question for rogues) It just seems like a good place to start and then they can add new recipes when they get the chance.

I keep getting non specific responses ie "its a bigger problem", "it needs a revamp like alchemy." If my two changes are not hard to implement, it seems to me like, FACT, we would get a snare & slow utility and little more DPS. Why does everyone require a complete overhaul that I assume will take (2 or 3 expansions) 1 to 1.5 years and may not work.

It seems you want a huge overhaul w entire poison system like a hybird type spell book, or make it a proc. Those ideas will take time and are huge code problems. My idea was meant to be a bandaid until change is made. IMHO a band aid that will actually make me carry poisons

Post Script. Also I am a little unsure about something. The thread asking for suggestions, for the new expansion, that our correspondant started that had all the ideas. Isn't it too late. I thought tSS is being released in a month??

Bigger problem includes application (I'll ignore the farming ingredients and resist side of it since you're solution would answer that). There are two types of poisons... the type you have to apply each time before you use it and the type that acts like a proc on a weapon. The type you have to apply each time are nice because you know it will hit the first time you pierce a mob, but its impractical because you only get to use that once per battle unless you plan on repeatedly applying the poison each time you want to use it. These are also one shot poisons that don't stack in inventory, so how much room do you have in your inventory where you can carry enough around to last more than 20 minutes of fighting?

The proc type poison is nice because it is a buff that lasts for 15 minutes and can be combined into 10 doses, so more convenient to carry around. The downside is there's no way to turn it on and turn it off when you want to use it other than clicking off the buff and negating any benefit that provided. I only need to snare a mob once, not 5 times in a 10 second period of time.

Next issue regards usefulness. Offensive DD poisons are inadequate and do not provide sufficient dps increases, especially when you're talking about the one shot poison that you apply at the beginning of a fight. We do have slow/snare/debuff poisons, but again its impractical to rely on a rogue to be responsible for this because of the limited capabilities of these poisons. Remember, this poison system was designed years ago when the game was completely different.

I'm sure there are more things to be fixed than I've mentioned, but I'm saying the whole poison system needs to be reevaluated from top to botton. Throw out the old poison book and make a new poison book... it worked for alchemy. Just dumping the ingredients on PoK vendors and changing a few resists isn't going to make that 200 DD poison any more desirable.

Problem is with a bandaid fix the devs will leave it at that and will take even longer to implement the revamp IF they even do it after the bandaid. Yes in a perfect world they would just toss out a couple poisons into PoK that we can make 24/7 without farming and then an expansion later they go back and completely overhaul the system. I personally see this as counter productive. Where as the time spent to put a bandaid on the issue next patch could be much better used time towards the complete overhaul. Thing is we have a snare right now that is all purchased ie spirit of sloth. No its not the greatest thing in the world but I have yet to have a problem with it. Now for a slow poison, kinetic suppressant i think, I use it often and it does require some farming for 1 component that takes roughly 30 min of killing to get about 10 vials. The mobs are way green like 1 or 2 hits and dead. So IF you want those 2 specific poisons yes im sorry you will have to work a little bit for them but they are available.

As for your comment on the resists yes a larger resist check on the poison would fix the problem on the front end but what are they going to screw up on the back end? In my 6 years of eq I have seen them make the seemingly simple fixes into an 8-10 hr patch.

Just my 2cp.

reamas,

Dalnoth asked for input while the new TSS expansion is in Beta testing (still is in Beta), which means that there is a potential for some of the better and easier-to-implement ideas to make it by launch time. Poisons, unfortunately, does not fall under that category.

In theory, your idea of a bandaid fix for poisons seems like it makes sense, and I wholeheartedly support a long-term poison fix. Unfortunately, most of us have enough experience with Sony to know that their track record on bandaid fixes is, in a nutshell, worthy of a potentially good rant thread alone. Here is what I believe our fear is, to be honest.

If Sony puts forth the short-term time and effort to fix the resist rates and farming issues of poison making, they will either spend less time and effort in the long term fixes that our tradeskill so desperately needs or even delay a total revamp indefinitely.

Again, this statement is made with 5+ years of history (or however long it's been since Sony purchased EQ from Verant). Yet, watching Ngreth work so closely with the tradeskill community so far has made me very excited about a future Poisons revamp, even if it takes longer than I'd like it to. I, for one, am not willing to compromise the potential for a fantastic rework on our tradeskill, which I believe would be compromised if any short-term changes were made.

One other thing that has not been mentioned is that it is, for the most part, out of character for Sony to supply vendors with items which can be obtained in the field of battle. Yes, you can loot a water flask from a madman in North Ro or a ration from a goblin in Sol A. Yes, there are a few other items which break this mold. But, as is evident with the Alchemy revamp, they would rather completely change the recipe ingredients before they put droppable items on vendors. Please be aware of the history involved.

And finally, having vendor-bought high level poison ingredients would also break the mold of EQ's vision for class tradeskilling. If I'm not mistaken, most player-made (Alchemy) potion ingredients can be vendor bought up to around level VI. For levels VII to X, there is one or more ingredients that must be farmed (someone correct me if I'm wrong). How Sony chose to handle that was to make many of the potions that required farming highly desirable.

I suspect that Sony will do something similar with Poison Making. If that's the case, then putting ANY effort at all into the current form of Poison Making would make no sense at all to them.

Just a few points for you to consider,

The trouble with "bandaids" is they tend to make people forget about the underlying problem, which results in a lot more problems later.

That is why we want a total revamp.

Some of the problems with poisons:

Different types: some are 1-shot, some are 15 min buffs
Resisted too easily
Underpowered when they DO land
There are duplicates upon duplicates of the same effects
Some require sitting to apply - can't do that mid-fight, especially solo

So you put a "band-aid" on it, and make the materials available on vendors, and adjust the resist mods....big deal. Now they say "we fixed some of it" and move on to something else, putting it on the back burner because it is no longer a hot issue.

Instead, push for the big fix, the complete revamp. Make the materials available by vendor to varying degrees. Adjust the resist modifiers, up the damage and add in new lines that allow for snares, stuns, etc. Kill the application via sitting and work in the poison belt/pallete.

Do it all at once, and get it right instead of halfway and halfassed.

Thank You Thank You, that makes perfect sense

Totally agree, the apply side is a problem. I guess i just want to use a poison already. As in today and I cant bc I am still working on too many things to have time to farm.

Yeah it will, make it a 300 point DD proc 30 min buff and tell me if it was vendor bought you wouldn't want it. Its better than every DD aug. Put that with a 30% single shot unresistable slow thats stackable and a 50% snare. That would be a decent band aid while they worked on completely redoing the system.

Nodding blue lillys drop like candy in seb, there is no reason that our high end poison reagents shouldn't do the same and require 1 other vendor item to finish out the recipe (not including reusable items like the master sketch).

You missed my point Soketh. What you're suggesting would require more than the OP was asking for. I was giving reasons why what he asked for wouldn't be enough. I'm all for changing the system and a 300 dd proc might come in handy, but why stop there? Why not a 500 dd proc? A 750 dd proc? And the ability to use 3 or 4 poisons on the same mob would come in very handy as well. But these are big changes that won't come with a bandaid. If they try to do that with a bandaid, we'll have a bigger mess than we have with our trap system. Patience is a virtue!!

Thats not what i meant.....

300 is only slightly more than what is available in a permenant version and in addition it cost us money everytime. 500 or 700 is not reasonable but i concede to perhaps missing your point.

If this true I agree,otherwise a band aid would be nice. Even just putting the ingredients (or new ingredients) in POK would be enough for me now until fixed.

That's a cleric AA that is a modest undead DOT with a 2% chance of doing the 32k proc. While it looks cool, it's little more than a parlor trick in reality.

I believe his point was that the mob took 32k and was still at 18%. Hence, a ~300 DD poison is a drop in the bucket, and not worth the time to bother farming and making.

Correct me if I am wrong.

A 300 DD proc is totally worth it, if it procs all the time like augs. Assuming that you have the appropriate AAs. It would be a nice DPS addition for 30 min for lower end rogues.

Hell, I'd take 300DD any day.

Depends on what you see as a proper return on the time involved to make the poison. If you find the 300DD proc that's highly resisted to be worth the hours spent farming super rare components, then the poison is worth it.

If you don't find the time vs. reward worth it, then the poison skill is largely wasted. I personally find it a waste, as my play time is mostly limited to raids and I can't solo the drops needed for the top end poisons.

Anyway, whether a poison is "worth it or not" is an individual decision.

What needs to happen, is for poisons to become 'more' worth it for the majority of people.

That statement contradicted itself, unless by lower end rogues you mean non-raiding rogues. As far as I know, most rogues with "the appropriate AAs" cannot be lower end because those AA's just aren't available at lower levels.

Again, even if you're talking non-raiding rogues that 300 DD proc isn't going to make that much of a difference unless they really change the entire system. On a typical fight where I have a pop poison running, it might proc 5 times in a 45 second to a minute fight (if I'm lucky, there are fights where it never procs at all). Thats a ~30 dps increase (possibly more with crits, but those are few and far between for me). For a rogue to have spent all those AA's to be the best he can be along with spending the time to become a master poisoncrafter, he'd probably be disappointed if thats the intended result of this bandaid. I know I would be.

Maybe they can change the proc frequency for poisons so its more on the line with some of the weapon procs. I know my Chailak fang proc hits 10 to 15 times over a minute fight sometimes, but my life sap II proc hits about as often as the poison procs. Again, this type of change can't be made with a bandaid. You touched on using more than one poison at a time. I'd love to see that. Same story... can't make that change with a bandaid.

Out of curiosity, I'm unclear exactly how multiple weapon procs work. If I have 1 proc on my piercer plus a poison proc buff, is it possible for the poison proc to hit on the same swing as a weapon proc? If not, then that might be another thing to consider when it comes time to revamp this. It seems we're losing out on some potential DPS with multiple procs, but thats more than I care to think about.

You can only proc once per combat round. Aka you can't proc once from an attack and again on the double attack. Hands are treated independently so you could get two procs right when you hit attack - one from each hand.

If two procs trigger, the effect with the higher procrate will take precedence. Rogues are probably best off as we have dual wield and favor +dmg augs over procs. Classes like... knights with a slow 2h weapon (higher proc rate per swing) might be more sensitive to this.

I believe if all proc rates are equal, and multiple fire, then the weapon's innate proc will fire first, then an aug'ed proc, then a spell proc.

Also, PC's can proc off of misses but not ripostes, NPCs can proc off of ripostes but not misses. A 'rune' hit is considered a 'miss'

Add an additional aug slot to weapons, or to some weapons. Have it be of type where the aug is a rogue only (makes the item rogue only, the aug itself possibly could be traded) and have the aug be a poison-based aug. They could then, fairly easily, implement poisons within the game, in sellable, questable, and droppable forms. This would give all the power and customability currently existing in the aug system.

Polt
Brell/CT

I hope Jazya's explanation on proc effects makes a few believers of those that think SOE can fix poisons with a simple bandaid. There are so many things tied into poisons besides making them and resists. Besides revamping the poison system, these desired improvements may impact how rogues chose weapons and augments.

Thanks Jaz... makes it a little clearer (but I do have a headache now).

You would snub 30 extra dps? Thats just silly....

What i meant by lower end rogues is grouping or lower tier raiding rogues.

For example if they implemented vendor bought DD proc poisons while they overhaul the whole system (along with the others i mentioned to add minor utility) they would be level restricted and say the 300 DD would only be usable by level 75s. But if you were a lower leveled rogue there would be other lower damage poisons you could use.

I see no problems with this as a bandaid. Until they actually fix the whole mess.

Its a bandaid. If I had a choice whether to take the bandaid or wait for a revamp, I'd wait for the revamp. What you're suggesting is that its just a simple fix for them to add vendor sold DD proc poisons that don't already exist in game with different mechanics than any current poison. I'm suggesting that its not a simple fix and if they tried that then those of us who do still dabble in poisons would be worse off than we are right now. If you really want my answer to that question, then yes I would snub this hypothetical ~30 dps increase. I apologize if you think thats silly.

And my hypothetical ~30 dps increase is flawed since this 300 DD proc is an upgrade for poison procs that are currently available... that number should probably be halved.

I would take it if,wouldnt prevent them from doing an actual revamp. If putting in a few ingredients in POK for whatever reason slows down the overhaul it aint worth it, which is what this newbie was informed.

Also the number should only be halved for people who currently use the poison. Most rogues i suspect do not.
A 30 or 60 dps increase would not be gamechanging but would be fun to goof around with poisons. Especially if they have a cool graphic.

Does this site support polls, I am curious what % of rogues currently use poison in any form.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I completely believe that if we were to get a band aid right now, we would not see a re-vamp for 2-3 years. I think it would push us to the back of the line for the TS revamps (which, from my understanding all are getting one, just gonna be a while).

Thinking more about it though, I think I would like to see vendors for the items needed for most of our poisons now, or at least the one shot ones (assuming they keep the 2 types). Since they can't be stacked (barring changes to that) it's not like they will make us solo Gods using only ready bought items.

Now for the meat of the re-vamp though, make so worth while poisons. Something farmed, not impossible to get but hard enough to make ya think twice about it. Make it 1 shot and a Lore item, but in return almost impossible to resist and hits like a freight train. Then add in some proc ones that again are harder to get, but do some serious damage.

Also 2 things I really want:

1. The application of a poison (buff types) WILL NOT BREAK FREAKING HIDE!!!! I don't care if it costs AA's to do, I'm a rogue and yer telling me Sont thinks I'm not sneaky enough to dab a little poison on my blade before driving it in my enemies backs without it breaking my stealth????

2. Let me stack my poisons. 1 shots I could go with the idea of only 1 at a time, but if it's a buff slot why not let me add 2-3 or more? Sure it might reduce the chances of some firing (the whole proc thing Jazya went into), but it would improve my chance of A proc every round.

*edit* And yes Reamas, I do use poisons now. Not all the time, but I have a handfull of different ones I use quite a bit.

I didnt get much response but I suggested regarding the application having a poison belt, similiar to a potion belt.
You right click on a slot (slow-spine break,DD,DoT,snare) and it does a quicksplach of poison onto your blade. Later want a snare, right click that poison. Have it work like a proc or spell, doesnt matter to me.

Things that would need to be addressed before that would work:

Would the "splashes" be single shots or proc/buffs?
If proc/buff, and you want to use another, will it overwrite the old one, or replace it, or stack?
If it stacks, there is a lower chance of a proc due to multiple buffs and limited by rounds of combat.
If it replaces, they need to all be in the same spell line in order to overwrite, meaning they all need to be recoded.
If they are single shot, will they be 10-dose-able, single charge (bag space issue) or will an "endless poison" option be made available?

It's a nice idea, requiring a large amount of work for implementation. I can see it being made available with the revamp, but not as a band-aid.

I'm not real excited to see yet another pop up window on my UI, but I would live with it.

Wow, I thought I had a good idea, but not even one comment...

First, although this would not be a quick fix, as the original poster was requesting, it might be something for the dev team to look at when revamping the poison system.

Second, how would the aug be applied to the aug slot on the weapon? Currently, a birdbath is required to place an augmentation on a slot, weapon or otherwise. Only reason I say that is because it seems like it limits you to a certain poison aug, unless you were to de-aug and re-aug the weapon with a new poison.

I guess it kinda limits how many poisons you can use during an evening ... unless, of course, if the aug can be applied without using a birdbath, is expended after so many uses (or time past), and must be reapplied on a regular basis. Honestly, I can see some merit in this idea, provided the implementation is honed. From your post, though, it was difficult for me to understand what you were saying.

Finally, I would assume that this Rogue only poison weapon aug would NOT take the place of single shot or buff-based poisons but, rather, in addition to, and perhaps even have utility-based applications.

Can you be a little more specific on how you see your idea implemented, Polt?

I dont understand?
If its an aug slot how is it expenable? Do you mean create a brand new type of expendable aug ? That would be alot of work
How do you change from a slow poison to a DoD one? do you need to reattach and distill an aug each time?
Currently the Aug slots need the Augment Tank, you want to make it some augs do and some do not nedd that tank?
I dont think it would be easy to have a Aug slot be class only. That is nowhere in-game so also total redesign needed.
You have also completely removed the apply poison skill (actually that I like)

You are trying to fit poisons in a pre-existing part of the game to make it easier for Devs. In reality, aug slots are so differant from poisons it would be way more complicated then making an entirely new system. You would also have to add a new slot to every weapon.

Also you say "They could then, fairly easily, implement poisons within the game, in sellable, questable, and droppable forms." Does not address problems of poisons.
Right now they can make quests and dropable poisons and buy poisons. So what exactly are you shooting for with this major overhaul? If you are gonna make the poisons better and easier to farm, we could do that w/o revamping system. I am not saying it is a bad idea to have it similiar to Augs but it is by no means an "easy" fix.
What about 10 dose and 1 dose what happens to old poisons? we have to delete the old system or now have 3 types, is your idea more of a proc?
What about the other combines in other tradeskills that use poisons?


Poisons are much closer to potion & spell system. They are both limited duration. Potions are also expendable as are poisons. They are both craftable. Potions arent class only though, at least to my knowledge. Also only spells are castable on others, potions are generally self casted.

Put an "armor" slot on a weapon to drag the aug into =P

The aug idea might could work, but don't see anything like that going through (at least not the way it's been described here). If it does I would think it would be a crafted proc aug, but little more. And would more than likely require a birdbath to change. If that's the case the only advantage over don augs might be the PR vs FR/CR/MR (I'm pretty sure the taps augs are on MR anyways).


Now if poison gets a revamp like alchemy, I'm pretty sure we can say good-bye to single dose and even multi dose poisons /waves goodbye to GMAS. I'm betting on single dose buff type proc poisons that can be stacked to 20 (The only good thing about that whole idea). I'd still love to see more single shot poisons and to make them more user friendly make the stack to 20.

i like other rogues would like to see a poison change and to keep it simple

1

i like other rogues would like to see a poison change and to keep it simple

1 i see no reason why poison items cant be on vendors not all but more than we have now


2 to avoid over powering lower lv rogues and at the same time not cut higher lv rogues short on effect i would ask for a lv bonus of some kind to boost the resist that a mob would need to resist the poison when checks are done and a dammage / effect bonus again directly tied to the lv of the rogue.


this would up the value of a good poison and if a lv 30 should use it he will get the lv 30 results if a lv 70 would use that same poison he would get the lv 70 results as in if its a direct dammage poison say base ( just to pick a number ) of 100 pts of dammage on a one time hit the lv 30 could only do that but the lv 70 would use the same poison and get base 100 + ((level >60) x 10) to give a dammage of 800 if it was not resisted at all and on the resist side if a mob would need a 230 pr to totaly resist that poison it just may resist it if used by a lv 30 rogue but if used by a lv 70 rogue it should not be resisted most times due to again a formula added to poison check per the class now not knowing the formula that is used i would guess something like

base 230 - ((level>60) x 2) or something of that nature this way if the mob has 230pr and gets hit by a lv 30 rogue he would totaly resist it but if hit by a lv 70 rogue it would drop his pr to well under 230 so the poison would land well some % of it at least. now i am no programer as well but i did take a class or two back in the day when basic was still in the class room. i do know that things can be represented in numbers unless things have changed greatly but if that can be added to the poison check lines that are being used in game now it should do the trick the only thing i would like to play with in game is the multiplier to see if it is reasonable but that would give a nice fix i think and let us use the poisons we have but they will be more effective on higher lv mobs. i think this can work pls respond i want to know what u guys think and why. pls explain and no rants thanks

The original post was intended to say it doesnt seem that hard to fix. The only thing that was pointed out to me was that the applying aspect of poisons is no good. You can not stop midbattle to put on a snare if snarer goes down. This is true and needs to be addressed

Apparently people, unlike me, want a complete overhaul. They feel a bandaid will postpone needed overhaul.


Otherwise I still think we just need better poisons, it is not that hard to make new items up. The level of snare/slow/Dot etc should be better. I mean they do this with every single spell every expansion where there is a level increase, why not us too. Do you think making something stackable by 100 is complicated. Every item in EQ probably has a criteria that must be filled in. Ie who can hold, wield it etc. Level reqs , Lore, droppable etc. One item is stackable change it from 1 to 100. It is also not that hard to add items to vendors. They just need to fix aplly so it can be done mid-melee. I mean all the OOW poisons are ok, just IMPOSSIBLE to farm

This thread just gets longer and longer..

Poisons will get fixed one of these days.. just live with what we have now.. Alll of these ideas for fixes have come up in half a dozen other threads that are on this board. Beating a Dead Horse ain't going to do anymore good and I have all faith in Dalnoth as our Rogue Correspondent that he is kicking the Devs in the butt to get us noticed..

For those that want quick fixes.. nothing happens in EQ quickly.. and if you are expecting something in the next month it is probably not going to happen. It has been stated before that there will probably not be another patch until TSS is released due to the huge problems that happened prior to the last expansion release. What that means to the general population.. nothing is going to be magically added to vendors, no bandaids, no help with your farming issues.. things are going to remain as they are..

I am going to side with 90+% of the Rogues here.. WE DO NOT WANT A QUICK FIX.. WE WANT SOME REAL WORK DONE TO POISONS AND TO OUR CLASS IN GENERAL!!!!! As stated before..there are major issues that need work on first.. Poisons is like number 875 in a list of a million more problems..

Bah.. Rant Off..

It's not necessarily that we FEEL it will postpone our needed revamp ... it's more like history has shown us that it WILL. I hate to say, "just trust us, we've been here a while and seen it happen", but "just trust us, we've been here a while and seen it happen".

Most spells, yes. But there is considerably more time involved in creating, developing, testing, and releasing anything in Everquest. Again, history has shown this.

Just an FYI, we have already been told that it would be a coding nightmare for our single shot poisons to be made stackable. In fact, we were told that a complete poison revamp would be the only way to address this. My point is that it might not be as simple as changing an item flag, or making a "20" a "100" in the code. Unless you know how the code works, and how it was developed (which you admit you don't), try not to make assumptions of how easy it would be. I'm not saying it's NOT easy ... I'm saying it's impossible for us to know since we're not coding it.

I'm not sure how hard it is to do this, but you may be right in that it's an easy fix. But, as has been mentioned already, Sony has made it abundantly clear that they are not in favor of making droppable items available in unlimited supply on vendors. Would it be nice to have vendors stock current poison ingredients? Sure, but history again implies that it will not happen.

Quoted for truth. You see, EQ dev teams have rolled out changes quickly in the past ... and there is a reason why they do more extensive testing now. Again, it's helpful to know the history of Everquest.

Kv

I have to agree with what appears to be the majority and hope for a total revamp of poisons.Tho i do tend to use poisons in admittedly specific times.I like them mostly due to the concept of rogues always having poisoned blades.

I do have one littke irritating pet peeve about poisons.
Why the fragging dog doodle do our poison compentnets sell so well to vendors? I mean i get a group in lets say ,Rifts,,during the exp grind a few poison compenents drop,,,Since they sell for 44 to 100plat each ,the group im in wants to either Roll for them as they drop ,or have a master looter (non rogue,guessing they think i would keep the poison items and not sell and split the plat) and split the plat up later .

Now lets face it ,if a spell research item dropped or a shammie alchemy item dropped ,most if not all groups wouldnt hesistate to give the items to the shammie or researcher...

If a total revamp does ever happen ,might Suggest Heavily that our poison components sell to vendor for 1 copper no matter what zone they drop from...

Edit: No i dont plan on accepting a group invite from the member of the particular group again,,i might be a rogue but i do have my standards =p

Poison overhaul is two expansions away for one simple reason: it didn't make the priority list. I'll see if I can find the reference from the tradeskill dev.


Fac

Okay, here it is:

Straight from the TS dev, Ngreth's mouth after he explained he didn't understand poison he says:

You can find the whole discussion here:
http://forums.thesafehouse.org/forum...d.php?p=308726


and Fricka spoke with him which you can see here:

http://www.thesafehouse.org/forums/s...d.php?p=306093

Basically he said the same thing, which is tailoring and smithing get revamps first. Which I read as, even though poisons have been a top 10 issue for rogues forever we don't know what to do with it so we'll work on something easy that keeps the plat farming community happy.

Fac

Well, wheras smithing and tailoring affect a lot of the population, poisons (as they are currently) only affect rogues, so it makes sense for them to revamp everything, then hit up alchemy and then maybe smithing and tailoring again. Oh, and jewelcraft, fishing and pottery again. Then maybe throw us a poison fix quick before heading back to Tailoring and smithing again......

Poison is more a class balance issue than a tradeskill issue. It was a viable source of rogue utility, I could slow, debuff, snare, Throw some extra damage, stun etc all on demand The only part that sucks was sitting that can't really be happening with the new poisons when they come but most need to be on demand. So in conclusions, this isn't really a tradeskill issue in my opinion. Yes there is tradeskills involved but it more boils down to the effects on the poisons and how they are going to have poisons 3.0 work rather than the tradeskilling involved.

Force Proc AA or Combat Ability solves everything! Woohoo! Righteous!

I guess I don't believe poisons to be a high priority for SOE since it has taken so long for anything to be done with them since PoP. One update in OoW with components way too rare to make the poisons useful. One almost update in GoD when they seemed to have just quit after making up the newbie poison tradeskill quests.

I understand it takes time to revamp poisons, and I want it to be a good job, and not a slapdash fix for what should be a class defining ability. It seemed we might be making progress a while ago in the Labratory discussion about the poison revamp, but that died down. Guess we wait a year and see if it really does get it's revamp. I'm just not holding my breath.