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Shadowpiercer
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Join Date: Feb 2006


 
Re: 2 Expansions to fix poison
Reply With Quote   #51

I laugh when I hear people talk about being 'patient', that SoE *wants* to fix rogue poisons, but they want to be sure they get it right. It is genuinely funny to me. How long has this game been out? Quite some time actually, and rogues have been there from the beginning. But poisons have been nigh-useless from the beginning. And they have not 'fixed poison' not due to the intricacies of programming, or any other reason besides that it is just not a priority for them. And it is not a priority for them because they count on the acquiescence of rogues and on the fact that many rogues are resigned to the fact that SoE does not put much effort into their class. If people expected more from the developers, rogues might become a class I think is worth playing again. Just my opinion


Dalnoth_Vaz
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Re: 2 Expansions to fix poison
Reply With Quote   #52

Shadowpiercer said:
But poisons have been nigh-useless from the beginning.
Yeah, being able to resist debuff mobs, pre-slow them on inc. Open up with a 500dd or a multitude of other things was totally useless.



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brogett
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Re: 2 Expansions to fix poison
Reply With Quote   #53

The slow poisons still work on lots of content too, certainly for a lot of XP group stuff. I've even had the old-world poison slows landing on CoA mobs. The big problem is inventory management and farming to make it realistic though. It's just such a PITA. Sony originally seemed to view poisons as a "special case but able to do most things" idea. Rogues had a lot of utility with them, but realistically even back in the day they couldn't use them for every mob. These days snare and slow are still as valuable, and to a lesser extent the resist debuffs still have merit (but they're pretty small now in comparison to the impact they originally had), but the DD, dot, etc ones are entirely worthless.

By delaying a revamp even more though all that'll happen is our better poisons get replaced with things like the snare trap as a stop-gap measure. When (more like IF) we finally get a revamp either the snare poison is going to be worthless or the snare trap is worthless (well, no contest there then!).

Frankly I suspect sony won't do a good job of revamping them anyway. They're considered a tradeskill and come under the control of Ngreth. I have nothing against Ngreth at all, but the fact that a class defining ability is being reviewed by the tradeskill dev indicates that Sony considers them as lin much the same way as other player made items and not as a true class ability. Or to put it bluntly, it'll be LoY & OOW poisons all over again.

Brog


reamas
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Re: 2 Expansions to fix poison
Reply With Quote   #54

I feel like an idiot here.
I finally made the 10 dose vials. It took forever b/c i did it all on my own (except for enchanted clay) from scratch. Started w 0 pottery and brewing and baking.


Anyway, the way poison 10 doses work isnt so bad. As a matter of fact, I have been saying get a poison belt without knowing that they work in your potion belt.

Now to me, it seems the only problems are the farming and the effectiveness. Those are quick fixes. They can make our slows and snares any level they want with little effort. This newbie now disagrees w what the vets are saying. Just fix farming and effectiveness and I am happy. We could also use some more slots for poison in belt.


Polt11
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Re: 2 Expansions to fix poison
Reply With Quote   #55

Augs

I was suggesting craftable augs, poison in make-up, that would be listed as a new type of aug, say slot 99. Slot 99 augs are listed as rogue-only augs. All existing and future weapons would get a slot 99 added. I would continue to use the birdbath to slot the aug, as that is what is already in place. The aug would be a permanent attachment to the weapon until removed. The augs would come from different sources: poison-tradeskill created, mob drops, and boss drops. They would require a birdbath to replace the aug, but wouldn't require any solvent to replace, and the aug wouldn't be destroyed.

As for functionality, I thought that you would aug different weapons for different effects. This is obviously limiting, and not the best solution. However, they have already shown that adding aug slots is within the current functionality of the game. Augs are already within the functionality of the game.

If people want to talk best idea, but not easily implemented, then just look to the endless quiver idea. Put a poison in your arrow slot and it permanently attaches an effect to the weapon until removed, without being used up. You could make this an aa ability, if desired.


brassmonkeyc738
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Re: 2 Expansions to fix poison
Reply With Quote   #56

reamas said:
Those are quick fixes.
Until you've actually coded a change to a mmorpg game and can say this thru experience, I wish you'd stop using such phrases.


Blaydh
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Re: 2 Expansions to fix poison
Reply With Quote   #57

reamas said:
I feel like an idiot here.
Perhaps you should talk less, and read, look and listen more?

reamas said:
I have been saying get a poison belt without knowing that they work in your potion belt.
Yeah, 2 slots for potions without the upgrades. That includes heal pots, cures, poisons, DS pots, and the rest. But again, less talk, more reading/listening would have told you that.

reamas said:
Now to me, it seems the only problems are the farming and the effectiveness. Those are quick fixes. They can make our slows and snares any level they want with little effort. This newbie now disagrees w what the vets are saying. Just fix farming and effectiveness and I am happy. We could also use some more slots for poison in belt.
And still no clue on how coding works. They are not quick fixes. When you code something in EQ, there is a domino effect.

If the poison is not effective, how do you "fix" it?
Adjust the resist mod?
OK, now by adjusting the resist mod, did you just screw up any events/mobs where they needed that resist in order to perform "correctly"?
Does the new poison ability interfere with any class balance issues?
Can the poison be used to exploit anything?
How will the adjustment affect any mob that may be using that same proc?
Will it make them too hard to resist?

There is no "easy button" in coding.

You are correct on farming, well, sorta...

Some of the higher end drops currently have high enough resale value to make people want to keep them instead of giving them to rogues. Making them drop more often will not do a thing for us, they will still go to vendors. Make them less valuable?? Well, then you need to compensate by balancing out with higher values on other items. How will that effect things?


So disagree with the vets all you want. And just keep talking.



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reamas
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Re: 2 Expansions to fix poison
Reply With Quote   #58

Blaydh said:
Perhaps you should talk less, and read, look and listen more?
And still no clue on how coding works.
They are not quick fixes
When you code something in EQ, there is a domino effect.
If the poison is not effective, how do you "fix" it?
Adjust the resist mod?
Dont they do this for every item spell etc in new expansion
OK, now by adjusting the resist mod, did you just screw up any events/mobs where they needed that resist in order to perform "correctly"?
Dont they do this for every item spell etc in new expansion
Does the new poison ability interfere with any class balance issues?
Dont they do this for every item spell etc in new expansion
Can the poison be used to exploit anything?
Dont they do this for every item spell etc in new expansion
How will the adjustment affect any mob that may be using that same proc?
Dont they do this for every item spell etc in new expansion
Will it make them too hard to resist?
Dont they do this for every item spell etc in new expansion

There is no "easy button" in coding.

You are correct on farming, well, sorta...


So disagree with the vets all you want. And just keep talking.
One of the most thoughtless quotes I ever read.
Instead of looking at coding as magic use some common sense. I am not sure how many years you have to play until you get common sense, check if it's an AA.
Use your head to count how many new items come out every expansion. Now count how many new zones. New mobs. New graphics. New quests. New aa's. New Tradeskills. etc etc etc

How long do you think it would take to make 4 or 5 usable posions?
You willingness to accept excuses is admirable
My point was that they are closer then I thought to a good system.



Last edited by reamas; 08-28-06 at 08:13 AM.
Kverin
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Re: 2 Expansions to fix poison
Reply With Quote   #59

reamas said:
Dont they do this for every item spell etc in new expansion
I'm assuming this is a question, just without the punctuation. Yes, they do this to each new spell for expansions. Do you know how long it takes for them to do this? Considering that it takes developers approximately six (6) months to do this task for each expansion, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say it's not as easy as you're saying, reamas.

The fact remains that you don't appear to be understanding what some of us have been trying to get across to you. It's not as simple as just 'deciding' to fix poisons. My guess is that's why Blaydh is insinuating that you should listen more.

Entirely your choice though.

Best of luck,

Kv


reamas
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Re: 2 Expansions to fix poison
Reply With Quote   #60

Kverin said:
I'm assuming this is a question, just without the punctuation. Yes, they do this to each new spell for expansions. Do you know how long it takes for them to do this? Considering that it takes developers approximately six (6) months to do this task for each expansion, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say it's not as easy as you're saying, reamas.

The fact remains that you don't appear to be understanding what some of us have been trying to get across to you. It's not as simple as just 'deciding' to fix poisons. My guess is that's why Blaydh is insinuating that you should listen more.

Entirely your choice though.

Best of luck,

Kv
I think you missed my point. No it was not a question. Ask yourself how many items,spells AA's, disc come out w each expansion. The in the same sentance explain why we cant get 4 or 5 poisons.


Blaydh
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Re: 2 Expansions to fix poison
Reply With Quote   #61

reamas said:
Dont they do this for every item spell etc in new expansion
Yes, for everything that is NEW, but we are not talking new, are we?

If you would read more, and comprehend it, you would note that the poison revamp is left to Ngreth, the guy in charge of tradeskills. He is not wholly responsible for class balance, itemization, or spell development. Therefore, he needs to work the revamp duties into the schedules of those devs as well. And the schedules of the other devs currently revolve around a new expansion.

Since you seem to like tossing out the words "common sense", I suggest you first use it. Common sense would dictate that all of these rogues who have been playing the game for years have a grasp of what is going on, and when someone who admittedly has no clue when it comes to coding or how things have worked up until now wants to chirp about how "easy" things are, they just might know better.

I am not telling you to sit in the corner and shut up, I am merely saying that you need to absorb more than you excrete. Look at how much you have learned after you opened your mouth about how something doesn't work right.

You have some good ideas floating around in there, but the delivery system is subject.



Kverin
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Re: 2 Expansions to fix poison
Reply With Quote   #62

So, the new expansion launches in a few weeks and you want them to toss in a few poison fixes in that time frame. At least, I think that's what you're saying. What I'm saying is that it's unreasonable for that to occur, for the developmental reasons above by myself and Blaydh.

It takes six months (or more) to launch an expansion. The dev team has already gone through the issues Blaydh brought forth above (resist mods, exploits, etc) for all other spells, disciplines, and abilities. It's unreasonable to expect them to rebalance everything, just to throw a poison bone for us Rogues ... especially when they will be revamping it within a year.

Now, if you are expecting them to do this for the NEXT expansion, that might be doable ... they're probably only just starting to get ideas for that. I still wouldn't agree with a quick fix, at the potential cost of a good revamp, but I suppose we will have to agree to disagree here.

I still don't think you're listening to our arguments that it's not as simple as you're saying to make these fixes. Oh well, I suppose time will tell.

Luck to you,

Kverin


reamas
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Re: 2 Expansions to fix poison
Reply With Quote   #63

This is the last post I am making on this topic that seems to be getting too heated.
I will repeat my statement again.
I would really appreciate it if someone who KNOWS responds with wether this is a big deal or not. We can both have opinions on this, but whether using common sense, experiance or whatever, there are people who KNOW for sure. Those are the people I personally would like to hear from. If a Dev or correspondent said to me "Buddy, you are wrong it would take weeks to make those 4 poisons" I would shut up and even /bow before those w opposing opinions. But, no offense, some of you make it sound like your opinion is fact and can not understand a different point of view. Again, if someone w FACT knows how much work would go into my idea, i would love to get that info.

I think they should create 4 or 5 posion recipees (Slow, Snare, DoT DD) that have vendor bought or reasonably farmable components. Not a whole new effect, the slow could be the same make up as any (Ranger) spell currently in game.

Again this is a band aid until its fixed.


PS-I Love This Game




If you would read more, and comprehend it, you would note that the poison revamp is left to Ngreth, the guy in charge of tradeskills. He is not wholly responsible for class balance, itemization, or spell development. Therefore, he needs to work the revamp duties into the schedules of those devs as well. And the schedules of the other devs currently revolve around a new expansion.

Back and Forth Back and Forth Back and Forth. Fine I will say my point aagain. IFTHEY RELEASE NEW SPELLS FOR ALL CLASSES W EXPANSION, SOMETIMES NEW DISCIPLINES THEY HAVE TO GO THROUGH THESE SAME ISSUES YOU MENTION. WHY CAN'T THEY TROW IN A FEW POISONS TOO. You tell me I dont comprehend you, but you are going incircles. Everytime you meantion how much work goes into making a new poison I do comprehend. My response to you, as I have said the last ten posts, the same work goes into many many spells and disc's and AA's. If they are doing all the things you mentioned for those, why cant they throw us a bone too.



Last edited by reamas; 08-28-06 at 09:52 AM.
Blaydh
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Re: 2 Expansions to fix poison
Reply With Quote   #64

reamas said:
there are people who KNOW for sure. Those are the people I personally would like to hear from. If a Dev or correspondent said to me "Buddy, you are wrong it would take weeks to make those 4 poisons"
Devs do not come here to read and post regularly (see: busy with work) so, I suggest you go to them for your factual answers.

Most direct access to EQ devs:

http://eqforums.station.sony.com/eq

Good luck sir.


Kverin
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Re: 2 Expansions to fix poison
Reply With Quote   #65

I know you said you weren't posting on this thread anymore, reamas. But please just answer me this one single (uno, ein, un) question ...

Do you truly think that the developers could come up with, balance, code, test, and launch a few new vendored poisons in the few weeks left before the new expansion comes out?

Just a yes or no would be fine, just so I can know where you stand.

Kv



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brassmonkeyc738
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Re: 2 Expansions to fix poison
Reply With Quote   #66

Blaydh said:
Devs do not come here to read and post regularly (see: busy with work) so, I suggest you go to them for your factual answers.

Most direct access to EQ devs:

http://eqforums.station.sony.com/eq

Good luck sir.
And as a followup to Blaydh's response, 3 weeks from launch date of a new expansion in the middle of beta testing is not a very good time to start asking these questions. We've already been told when to expect a revamp of the poison system. I'm sure they'll keep your suggestions in mind when that day comes. Fortunately for us rogues that are asking for a little patience, not only do we know that these changes take time but we also know that the devs don't pay attention to every request for quick fixes that are made on these boards. You don't need to believe us Reamas. I don't code mmorpg games, but I do code less complex systems... and I do know, even with a much less complex system, how any minor change can be fatal if not planned properly. I can only imagine how much more difficult that would be with a system as old as Everquest.


reamas
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Re: 2 Expansions to fix poison
Reply With Quote   #67

Kverin said:
Do you truly think that the developers could come up with, balance, code, test, and launch a few new vendored poisons in the few weeks left before the new expansion comes out?

Just a yes or no would be fine, just so I can know where you stand.

Kv

Do I think they could make 5 poisonsin a few weeks-Yes ( i think it can be done in a day) (then tested for a week)
If it took more then a few weeks to create a poison then do the math.

New tradeskill item.......40
New Spells..................35
New Disciplines..............9
New Mobs.................200
New Graphics
New Quests
New NPC's
New Race
New zone map
New mob pathing
New items
Total.......................284 * 4 weeks=Many years between expansions

Do I think they will? No not at this point in time. Do I think other rogues will complain? Not a chance



Last edited by reamas; 08-28-06 at 10:56 AM.
milliar
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Re: 2 Expansions to fix poison
Reply With Quote   #68

reamas said:
New tradeskill item.......40
New Spells..................35
New Disciplines..............9
New Mobs.................200
New Graphics
New Quests
New NPC's
New Race
New zone map
New mob pathing
New items
Total.......................284 * 4 weeks=Many years between expansions
Not realizing we dont want a bandaid = Priceless


reamas
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Re: 2 Expansions to fix poison
Reply With Quote   #69

milliar said:
Not realizing we dont want a bandaid = Priceless
Missing entire point of if it can be done or not = 2 Cents
Missing the fact that think it does not take weeks to create 5 poisons = 1 dollar and 50 Cents


Blaydh
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Re: 2 Expansions to fix poison
Reply With Quote   #70

reamas said:
Do I think they could make 5 poisonsin a few weeks-Yes ( i think it can be done in a day)
Is this from your personal programming expertise?

Have you ever tried to look at the work someone else has done in the past and then tried to patch new stuff into it, in what amounts to a different language?

You do not have to have access to EQ's code to know what things like this entail, you just need to pull your head out of the clouds.


reamas
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Re: 2 Expansions to fix poison
Reply With Quote   #71

Blaydh said:
Is this from your personal programming expertise?

Have you ever tried to look at the work someone else has done in the past and then tried to patch new stuff into it, in what amounts to a different language?

You do not have to have access to EQ's code to know what things like this entail, you just need to pull your head out of the clouds.
PLEASE SEE POST # 67 and respond intelligently. DO THE MATH and tell me to get my head out of the clouds.

You know, it's because of your attitudes that lawyers get to charge so much money. You sit and listen to stuff you know nothing about with your mouths open. The lawyer can you tell you how something that takes 5 minutes will cost you 5 Grand and you will say thank you. Your amazed at the "Code" that mere mortals cant understand. I saw the matrix, I know whats up.

PLEASE SEE POST # 67 and respons intelligently. DO THE MATH and tell me to get my head out of the clouds. Or change the subject.


brassmonkeyc738
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Re: 2 Expansions to fix poison
Reply With Quote   #72

reamas said:
Missing entire point of if it can be done or not = 2 Cents
Missing the fact that think it does not take weeks to create 5 poisons = 1 dollar and 50 Cents
Hehe... you are stubborn, I'll give you that much. If you want anybody to give any credibility to your suggestions, I'd suggest that you give up this quest and accept the inevitable. I've suggested this before... if you have no programming experience at all I'd prefer you stop suggesting that these are minor fixes and would only take a day to make and a week to test. You have no basis for your assumptions. Even if SOE devs don't spend nearly as much time as I do frigging around on these forums, they still couldn't get these "quick fixes" you're suggesting done in less than a two or three weeks.... and thats not including the testing and without the pressure of a new expansion due within the next 3 weeks.


reamas
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Re: 2 Expansions to fix poison
Reply With Quote   #73

brassmonkeyc738 said:
Hehe... you are stubborn, I'll give you that much. If you want anybody to give any credibility to your suggestions, I'd suggest that you give up this quest and accept the inevitable. I've suggested this before... if you have no programming experience at all I'd prefer you stop suggesting that these are minor fixes and would only take a day to make and a week to test. You have no basis for your assumptions. Even if SOE devs don't spend nearly as much time as I do frigging around on these forums, they still couldn't get these "quick fixes" you're suggesting done in less than a two or three weeks.... and thats not including the testing and without the pressure of a new expansion due within the next 3 weeks.
Please see post #67 and respond


shmoozneak
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Re: 2 Expansions to fix poison
Reply With Quote   #74

Dalnoth_Vaz said:
Yeah, being able to resist debuff mobs, pre-slow them on inc. Open up with a 500dd or a multitude of other things was totally useless.
There are a number of problems with that.

The first is that only the old style "first-strike" poisons are remotely useful for "pre-slowing" and they're both too easily and frequently resisted and too slow, cumbersome (and frankly dangerous) to reapply after a failure for them to be practical. I mean think about it. You stab a mob just as it's coming into camp and by doing so inject a poison that is intended to slow the mob. The mob resists, but even the attempt generates huge agro. Do you sit down to apply another shot of poison while hoping that it doesn't turn toward you and beat you into a greasy spot on the floor? I don't. I start stabbing the mob and let the group's slower do his job. That means a group that relies on a rogue with poisons for pre-slowing mobs is one that's probably not going to be very happy with that arrangement.

Then there's the cost of these poisons. The cheapest of them costs several plat each to make. You want to spend several plat on every single mob pulled in an exp group? I don't.

As for the resist debuff poisons, those are pretty much a waste of time. The amount of debuff any of our poisons provide is a fraction of the amounts shamans and some of the other classes can provide with their spells, and again they are often resisted themselves. Since we'd need a shaman or chanter for slowing in most groups anyway that ground is already covered.

Then there's the 500ish hp DD first stike poison. That might look pretty impressive at level 30, but at level 70 I normally do about that much every second I'm in combat so it winds up being more important for me to just jump on the mobs as they arrive. Then there's the fact that the poisons of that type generally require farmed ingredients. I am not the only one who would tell you that it's just not worth the time or bother to farm that stuff to make a poison that is going to be resisted as often as not, and that is a one-shot deal even when used.

Are poisions as they currently exist entirely useless? No, they're just mostly useless and largely impractical.


Blaydh
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Re: 2 Expansions to fix poison
Reply With Quote   #75

reamas said:
Please see post #67 and respond
My mistake, your head isn't in the clouds.


Kverin
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Re: 2 Expansions to fix poison
Reply With Quote   #76

Let's all settle down a tad. This isn't a demand, mind you. I just think it would be helpful if we wish to have a healthy multi-directional discussion.

reamas, please explain where you got the numbers from post #67. Specifically, I would like to know if they came from a developer of Everquest.

Thank you,

Kv


reamas
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Re: 2 Expansions to fix poison
Reply With Quote   #77

I think you all relize that I am right and refuse to admit it. I think wherever you are you are fuming that I make complete sense. It's difficult for most people in our culture to concede defeat in an argument.

Fellas, take out the white flag. Join me in getting them to introduce a PoP poison that has the Ranger snare, something with slow, debuff etc. A tier 3 slow tier 3 snare tier 3 debuff. Stick the ingredients on vendors.

If it generates some aggro, so be it.



Last edited by reamas; 08-28-06 at 11:38 AM.
reamas
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Re: 2 Expansions to fix poison
Reply With Quote   #78

Kverin said:
Let's all settle down a tad. This isn't a demand, mind you. I just think it would be helpful if we wish to have a healthy multi-directional discussion.

reamas, please explain where you got the numbers from post #67. Specifically, I would like to know if they came from a developer of Everquest.

Thank you,

Kv
OMG
You are the vet, you fill in the numbers with your estimate including the lines i left blank, based on your veteran experiance w expansions. Then do the math. My point is if you fill it in with as conservative an estimate as you like (And i am sure there are more lines that I missed) it doesnt take weeks to create a few poisons. If it took weeks for every item............ THINK.
It could be you are confusing the timeline w time needed. IE the timeline
is 3 weeks between stages, but not needed times.


shmoozneak
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Re: 2 Expansions to fix poison
Reply With Quote   #79

brogett said:
Frankly I suspect sony won't do a good job of revamping them anyway. They're considered a tradeskill and come under the control of Ngreth. I have nothing against Ngreth at all, but the fact that a class defining ability is being reviewed by the tradeskill dev indicates that Sony considers them as lin much the same way as other player made items and not as a true class ability. Or to put it bluntly, it'll be LoY & OOW poisons all over again.
In fairness to Ngreth all of those things were done BEFORE he was even hired, and after seeing the huge improvements he made in Alchemy when he revamped that class specific tradeskill I am more than willing to take a good, long look at what he does with poison making when he eventually is able to devote time to a revamp of that skill before I even think about condemning him.

Furthermore Ngreth has a very good track record of being responsive to player feedback, and I really think he's earned the benefit of the doubt here.


brassmonkeyc738
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Re: 2 Expansions to fix poison
Reply With Quote   #80

reamas said:
I think you all relize that I am right and refuse to admit it. I think wherever you are you are fuming that I make complete sense. It's difficult for most people in our culture to concede defeat in an argument.

Fellas, take out the white flag. Join me in getting them to introduce a PoP poison that has the Ranger snare, something with slow, debuff etc. A tier 3 slow tier 3 snare tier 3 debuff. Stick the ingredients on vendors.

If it generates some aggro, so be it.
Well, obviously Reamas knows way more about programming than I do. Guess I'm getting to old and its time to retire since you really don't need to work in the industry for a number of years or spend any time actually going to school or learning to program to become an expert. Let me know how those changes are coming Reamas... I'm sure you'll get everything you're asking for and it works exactly as you expect.


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Re: 2 Expansions to fix poison
Reply With Quote   #81

Kverin said:
reamas, please explain where you got the numbers from post #67. Specifically, I would like to know if they came from a developer of Everquest.
They are uneducated guesses based on approximations of what lucy says.


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Re: 2 Expansions to fix poison
Reply With Quote   #82

Blaydh said:
They are uneducated guesses based on approximations of what lucy says.
Please see post #78


milliar
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Re: 2 Expansions to fix poison
Reply With Quote   #83

Reamas said:
I think you all relize that I am right and refuse to admit it. I think wherever you are you are fuming that I make complete sense. It's difficult for most people in our culture to concede defeat in an argument.
-----------------------

See now the problem is you assume you are right. And I think we all know what ass-u-me means. Look Im not trying to say your head isnt in the right place. Yes we need a poison system that works well. BUT guess what SOE has admitted that the system is lacking at best and they have stated that they will fix the issue with-in 2-3 expansions. Is this a long time to wait? IMO yes it is BUT at the same time this period of time gives the rogue community a chance to REQUEST what WE want as a whole and it gives them the time to do it right. You are relatively new to EQ 1 year or less iirc, most if not all of the folks replying to your post are veteran's with EQ. Myself since june 2000. A bandaid "fix" is not what we want and if it was the time span you are ASSUMING (ass-u-me) is 100% unreasonable and you yourself have admitted you know nothing about programming. I am not a programmer either but have many friends who are and see them work on similar projects on a much smaller scale and I can tell you 2 weeks for your quick fix is unreasonable on a scale such as EQ.

Edit:I forgot how to use quote.



Last edited by milliar; 08-28-06 at 11:55 AM.
shmoozneak
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Re: 2 Expansions to fix poison
Reply With Quote   #84

Blaydh said:
Yeah, 2 slots for potions without the upgrades. That includes heal pots, cures, poisons, DS pots, and the rest.
The need for an increase in the number of slots in our potion belts is huge, but that's really another issue entirely and not the subject of this discussion. It's also something that is beyond the realm of a poision revamp and not the job of the fellow who currently handles tradeskills for EQ. I would, however, agree that more slots in the potion belt would be hugely beneficial for many of us, and if poisions do become useful after the revamp then rogues in particular will need a lot more potion belt slots so they can use it more effectively for a variety of poisons.


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Re: 2 Expansions to fix poison
Reply With Quote   #85

Kverin said:
I know you said you weren't posting on this thread anymore, reamas. But please just answer me this one single (uno, ein, un) question ...

Do you truly think that the developers could come up with, balance, code, test, and launch a few new vendored poisons in the few weeks left before the new expansion comes out?
I can only speak for myself, but I'm not interested in a cludgey stop-gap type solution. I want to see what the large-scale revamp looks like when they eventually have a chance to do it, and I am prepared to give them the chance to do it right.


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Re: 2 Expansions to fix poison
Reply With Quote   #86

milliar said:
See now the problem is you assume you are right. And I think we all know what ass-u-me means. Look Im not trying to say your head isnt in the right place. Yes we need a poison system that works well. BUT guess what SOE has admitted that the system is lacking at best and they have stated that they will fix the issue with-in 2-3 expansions. Is this a long time to wait? IMO yes it is BUT at the same time this period of time gives the rogue community a chance to REQUEST what WE want as a whole and it gives them the time to do it right. You are relatively new to EQ 1 year or less iirc, most if not all of the folks replying to your post are veteran's with EQ. Myself since june 2000. A bandaid "fix" is not what we want and if it was the time span you are ASSUMING (ass-u-me) is 100% unreasonable and you yourself have admitted you know nothing about programming. I am not a programmer either but have many friends who are and see them work on similar projects on a much smaller scale and I can tell you 2 weeks for your quick fix is unreasonable on a scale such as EQ.
Please see post 67 regarding why I think it's B.S. and doesnt take that long if they cared.

That is the point. Again if it doesnt take a long time to institute the 4 or 5 poisons I mentioned they should do it. Post 67 is where i get my rationale that it does not take weeks to create a few poisons. Use your heads, add up how many poisons, spells, disc, tradeskill items are in game, multiply that by 3 or 4 weeks, according to this the game would have to have begun production with cromagnum man.


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Re: 2 Expansions to fix poison
Reply With Quote   #87

This is going to go round and round and it not going to go anywhere.. EQ is complex.. its an old system... maybe there are easy fixes out there, but experience with old systems leads me to believe that more problems will come with just putting in something that may or may not work..

For the Rogue community.. I consider myself a new "Veteran".. since I only have about 2 and half years experience in growing my Rogue. I will say this though.. the people here have never led me wrong in the past..the wealth of knowledge on these boards is very surprising.. but I have also not tried to invoke the wrath of the community. Reamas it ain't going to happen.. please let it rest and focus on something else.. believe me a time will come when you need help with something real and if you burn all your bridges there may not be help out there.. as they say.. know when to pick your battles.. Poisons is not the battle you want to fight so hard on.. give it time.. we all are hoping it will be fixed..

With that being said.. I appeal to the Board Moderators to please take this as my vote for this thread to be locked..



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Re: 2 Expansions to fix poison
Reply With Quote   #88

reamas said:
Missing entire point of if it can be done or not = 2 Cents
Missing the fact that think it does not take weeks to create 5 poisons = 1 dollar and 50 Cents
Missing the fact that in any real job involving program development time is a precious commodity and that developers like Ngreth have to do the things that have the highest priorities (as dictated by expansion schedules and other factors that are entirely beyond their control) first = DOH!


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Re: 2 Expansions to fix poison
Reply With Quote   #89

Well as much as I love to play devils advocate and argue I would have to second Kruzar's motion for locking this thread. It is going to become a flame war soon. That and it isnt getting anything productive accomplished.


Cleptomaniac
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Re: 2 Expansions to fix poison
Reply With Quote   #90

shmoozneak said:
There are a number of problems with that.

The first is that only the old style "first-strike" poisons are remotely useful for "pre-slowing" and they're both too easily and frequently resisted and too slow, cumbersome (and frankly dangerous) to reapply after a failure for them to be practical. I mean think about it. You stab a mob just as it's coming into camp and by doing so inject a poison that is intended to slow the mob. The mob resists, but even the attempt generates huge agro. Do you sit down to apply another shot of poison while hoping that it doesn't turn toward you and beat you into a greasy spot on the floor? I don't. I start stabbing the mob and let the group's slower do his job. That means a group that relies on a rogue with poisons for pre-slowing mobs is one that's probably not going to be very happy with that arrangement.

Then there's the cost of these poisons. The cheapest of them costs several plat each to make. You want to spend several plat on every single mob pulled in an exp group? I don't.

As for the resist debuff poisons, those are pretty much a waste of time. The amount of debuff any of our poisons provide is a fraction of the amounts shamans and some of the other classes can provide with their spells, and again they are often resisted themselves. Since we'd need a shaman or chanter for slowing in most groups anyway that ground is already covered.

Then there's the 500ish hp DD first stike poison. That might look pretty impressive at level 30, but at level 70 I normally do about that much every second I'm in combat so it winds up being more important for me to just jump on the mobs as they arrive. Then there's the fact that the poisons of that type generally require farmed ingredients. I am not the only one who would tell you that it's just not worth the time or bother to farm that stuff to make a poison that is going to be resisted as often as not, and that is a one-shot deal even when used.

Are poisions as they currently exist entirely useless? No, they're just mostly useless and largely impractical.
Not trying to stir the pot (too much), but I'm pretty sure in the case he was referring to was long ago in a galaxy far far away. They were talking about the usefulness back when it first began, not today at level 70. Those early poisons then VS todays level 70+ mobs is apples to oranges. Not saying it doesn't need work, just think ya missed the point of that one.

reamas
1. You may be right, it might only take a few hours to make a few new poisons. Then again it might take weeks. If you want real answers to real time frames go to the devs hangout and try asking them. Just take into consideration they are still trying to figure out EQ's code themselves. SOE did not make EQ, and they have to learn how the "masters" did it. One small change in just about ANY line of code can cause major failures in totally un-related areas. And it's not always easy to spot, sometimes it can affect areas of the code that aren't used unless person X does action Y for result Z, then the change from item A triggers an unwanted response from the sytem causing system failure, glitches, possible exploitations, or things just not functioning as they are supposed to.

2. At level 70 (this just my opinion here) you can forget anything usefull being made too easy. Vendor bought or dropping a dime a dozen in a zone that a gimp level 50 can solo? I seriously doubt it. Everything in this game is progression based, including progressive difficulty in making/getting worth-while items. Start hand feeding everything to every one and it makes EverQuest into WoW or worse. /stepping down from the soapbox mumbling something aqbout how the damn game is getting to watered down as it is


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Re: 2 Expansions to fix poison
Reply With Quote   #91

Very unproductive thread

I cant stop responding while people keep posting

At level 70 (this just my opinion here) you can forget anything usefull being made too easy. Vendor bought or dropping a dime a dozen in a zone that a gimp level 50 can solo? I seriously doubt it. Everything in this game is progression based, including progressive difficulty in making/getting worth-while items. Start hand feeding everything to every one and it makes EverQuest into WoW or worse. /stepping down from the soapbox mumbling something aqbout how the damn game is getting to watered down as it is

Bah, everyone always use that answer.
Other classes dont have utility tied to tradeskill. Necros don't need smithing to rez, Rangers dont need fletching to track. If our utility will come from poison you are wrong IMHO. If poison is an ADDED bonus, in addition to utility, I would agree with you.

If only we can get an answer from someone who knows to the main question. Only one man in the Safehouse can get a dev's answer

Anyway, no hard feelings, I am a big fan of the safehouse and all the people who contribute.

I honestly don't mind beind called an Arse/head in clouds/sit in corner and shut up/listen not excrete etc etc



Last edited by reamas; 08-28-06 at 12:20 PM.
Cleptomaniac
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Re: 2 Expansions to fix poison
Reply With Quote   #92

reamas said:
Very unproductive thread

If only we can get an answer from someone who knows.

Anyway, no hard feelings, I am a big fan of the safehouse and all the people who contribute.

I honestly don't mind beind called an Arse/head in clouds/sit in corner and shut up/listen not excrete etc etc
Just what is it you expected to accomplish here with this thread? Like it was suggested several times if you want time estimates or something go to their boards and ask them. Or go to EQTraders.com and post there, I hear the TS guy does visit those boards quite a bit.

If you wanted our opinions (which is really all that there is available on this thread other than getting Dal to submit an idea to the Devs, but I believe he generally only submits ones with quite a bit of support for it).

If you wanted opinions then I think this was a very productive thread, even if you do not agree with some of our opinions. Maybe some of the ideas from this thread can be used when our time comes and we start submitting ideas for the poison re-vamp. Believe me we need to lay out a nice game plan to present for this so we don't get just whatever happens to be laying around /insert AA Appraisal...which the coding "was already there just not being used" so they gave it to us.


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Re: 2 Expansions to fix poison
Reply With Quote   #93

Cleptomaniac said:
Just what is it you expected to accomplish here with this thread? Like it was suggested several times if you want time estimates or something go to their boards and ask them. Or go to EQTraders.com and post there, I hear the TS guy does visit those boards quite a bit.

If you wanted our opinions (which is really all that there is available on this thread other than getting Dal to submit an idea to the Devs, but I believe he generally only submits ones with quite a bit of support for it).

If you wanted opinions then I think this was a very productive thread, even if you do not agree with some of our opinions. Maybe some of the ideas from this thread can be used when our time comes and we start submitting ideas for the poison re-vamp. Believe me we need to lay out a nice game plan to present for this so we don't get just whatever happens to be laying around /insert AA Appraisal...which the coding "was already there just not being used" so they gave it to us.
Sorry by unproductive I meant it seemed like we went in circles a few times.


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Re: 2 Expansions to fix poison
Reply With Quote   #94

All right everyone Reamas backed off the personal edge. Let's follow suit and stop the badgering.


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Re: 2 Expansions to fix poison
Reply With Quote   #95

By the way, if anybody is interested in how the work the tradeskill developer will be doing is actually scheduled, take a look at message number 12 in this thread over on the EQ Traders forums. It gives a bit of insight into that suibject.


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Re: 2 Expansions to fix poison
Reply With Quote   #96

reamas said:
Sorry by unproductive I meant it seemed like we went in circles a few times.
NP, but discussions like this can lead to a few good ideas that can be later fowarded on to the devs.


Shadowpiercer
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Re: 2 Expansions to fix poison
Reply With Quote   #97

Dalnoth_Vaz said:
Yeah, being able to resist debuff mobs, pre-slow them on inc. Open up with a 500dd or a multitude of other things was totally useless.

I didn't say totally useless, but I did say nigh useless, especially compared to what poisons *should* be to a class that boasts the title of "Assassin". Still, this is just my opinion, and if resist debuffing, pre-slowing, etc. are your cup of tea, then drink up!


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Re: 2 Expansions to fix poison
Reply With Quote   #98

Shadowpiercer said:
I didn't say totally useless, but I did say nigh useless, especially compared to what poisons *should* be to a class that boasts the title of "Assassin". Still, this is just my opinion, and if resist debuffing, pre-slowing, etc. are your cup of tea, then drink up!
True, poisons imo should be deadlier than they are/have been. Hopefully they will scale in useable and power along with casters spells. Something like 50% (of base since we don't really have all the mods they do) for 1 shots, or 15% or so for procs would be nice. I dunno for sure though....think we really need to start discussing these things then have somebody go through the threads and make a nice concise list of ideas.


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Re: 2 Expansions to fix poison
Reply With Quote   #99

What do you guys think of the Spine Rend Poison. Do you think it is enough of a slow?

Forget cost and farmability, have you ever tried to be a group slower w it? (In a fast killing group)


Sorry meant snare, always do that.



Last edited by reamas; 08-29-06 at 07:13 AM. Reason: Snare/slow mix up
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Re: 2 Expansions to fix poison
Reply With Quote   #100

reamas said:
What do you guys think of the Spine Rend Poison. Do you think it is enough of a slow?

Forget cost and farmability, have you ever tried to be a group slower w it? (In a fast killing group)
Spine rend isn't a slow, it is a snare. And you can't reliably snare with it again.




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