March 11, 2007 | COLUMBUS, Ga. -- "This is not right," said Master Sgt. Ronald Jenkins, who has been ordered to Iraq even though he has a spine problem that doctors say would be damaged further by heavy Army protective gear. "This whole thing is about taking care of soldiers," he said angrily. "If you are fit to fight you are fit to fight. If you are not fit to fight, then you are not fit to fight."
As the military scrambles to pour more soldiers into Iraq, a unit of the Army's 3rd Infantry Division at Fort Benning, Ga., is deploying troops with serious injuries and other medical problems, including GIs who doctors have said are medically unfit for battle. Some are too injured to wear their body armor, according to medical records.
...
And while Grigsby, the brigade commander, says he is under no pressure to find troops, it is hard to imagine there is not some desperation behind the decision to deploy some of the sick soldiers. Master Sgt. Jenkins, 42, has a degenerative spine problem and a long scar down the back of his neck where three of his vertebrae were fused during surgery. He takes a cornucopia of potent pain pills. His medical records say he is "at significantly increased risk of re-injury during deployment where he will be wearing Kevlar, body armor and traveling through rough terrain." Late last year, those medical records show, a doctor recommended that Jenkins be referred to an Army board that handles retirements when injuries are permanent and severe.
A copy of Jenkins' profile written after that Feb. 15 meeting and signed by Capt. Starbuck, the brigade surgeon, shows a healthier soldier than the profile of Jenkins written by another doctor just late last year, though Jenkins says his condition is unchanged. Other soldiers' documents show the same pattern.
There are several other cases in the article, I didn't want to paste the whole thing. Read it if you feel like it.
Relaxing recruitment standards, sending injured troops back to Iraq; is this how we support our veterans? The guy is 42, and has fused vertebrae...what part of that says, "Combat-ready soldier," to anyone?
It's a cunning new tactic designed to decrease the number of casualties in Iraq. After all, if he's already a casualty then they can't count him a second time if he gets injured again...
This type of thing truely effects me. I am a 23 year old combat vet. Ive been out of Active Duty since June 25th 2005, after serving 3 years out of high school. I am currently a full time college student working on getting my RN. A few months ago I recieved redeployment orders to reactivate me from the Inactive Reserve. I Currently have Patellofemoral Pain Syndrom. In laymons terms, Knee pain cause by my Patella (knee) grinding with my Femur and Tibia. My doctors say that without my knee brace and physical theropy it will get worse and worse as I age. They highly suggest that I do not do any type of running, jumping, heavy lifting, kneeling ect ect.. Anything that an Infantryman (what i was) should be doing or else it will cause perminate damage. I filed for a deferment of my deployment and it was not approved, so now on june 3rd, I must report down to Fort Benning so have theyre doctors take a look at me and see if I am combat efficent. My life frakin sucks.
This type of thing truely effects me. I am a 23 year old combat vet. Ive been out of Active Duty since June 25th 2005, after serving 3 years out of high school. I am currently a full time college student working on getting my RN. A few months ago I recieved redeployment orders to reactivate me from the Inactive Reserve. I Currently have Patellofemoral Pain Syndrom. In laymons terms, Knee pain cause by my Patella (knee) grinding with my Femur and Tibia. My doctors say that without my knee brace and physical theropy it will get worse and worse as I age. They highly suggest that I do not do any type of running, jumping, heavy lifting, kneeling ect ect.. Anything that an Infantryman (what i was) should be doing or else it will cause perminate damage. I filed for a deferment of my deployment and it was not approved, so now on june 3rd, I must report down to Fort Benning so have theyre doctors take a look at me and see if I am combat efficent. My life frakin sucks.
Try and point to what your current schooling is, and see if you can get a change in what you do. Maybe they can assign you to a medical unit. Hell knows they could use some caring medical personel to help out with the current VA snafus.
where's our regular other side of the aisle folks in this topic?
For what? the only casuality my nephew knew was the guy that took a header out of the helicoptor and went splat. Kind of hard to re-deploy him.
Though, my nephew this past year actually had a bullet go right thru his helmet, he was uninjured.
As for " Master Sgt. Ronald Jenkins, who has been ordered to Iraq even though he has a spine problem that doctors say would be damaged further by heavy Army protective gear." Does his orders say he's combat ready? or that he will fill a combat role? For all we know - he could be down graded to some other tasks such as a running supplies or even a cook. All I know is my nephew did 2 tours and is state side for the next year. If they were really hurting, he'd be deployed a 3x and then his entire enlisted time overseas, but he's not.
As for fused vertebrae, my Stepmom had that a few years back. It's called *drumroll* back surgery! Having suffered a severly compressed disk myself back in 2000, I know to a finite degree exactly what his suffering and pain is like. Mine went away with anti-inflamartories and physical theraphy (PT). Capacity post-op/post PT can be diniminshed, but not that greatly that a person cannot do everyday tasks including those that exclude body armor all together and still surve a military roll.
If he wants out of military, he needs to contact his Congress person and see if he can get out (probably a dishonorable discharge, as a he failed to server his full term) or assigned state side. Realistically, narking to the new papers just pisses off the military and I would expect him to be cleaning bathrooms for next few months anyway.
There is no other side of the aisle on this, unless you're a fan of Cripple Fights.
Agreed.
I'm a supporter of the war in general, and our troops.
Many of our injured troops want to return to combat/full active duty. Many of them do (A large number of our casualties go right back over there).
But if we're so desparate for men that we'd send people that already have given something permanently for us back into harms way to give more, I'd almost prefer a draft.
But if we're so desparate for men that we'd send people that already have given something permanently for us back into harms way to give more, I'd almost prefer a draft.
Yes, because it might finally illuminate how stupid and wasteful of human life this whole thing has become.
"You Indians. How the hell do you laugh so much? I just picked your ass off the railroad tracks, and you’re making jokes. Why the hell do you do that?”
“The two funniest tribes I’ve ever been around are Indians and Jews, so I guess that says something about the inherent humor of genocide."
-Sherman Alexie, What you pawn, I will redeem
The level of ignorance in that post was utterly stupifying.
Any chance someone could refresh my memory as to whether there is an ignore feature for these boards? My brain reads too fast and just cost itself about 15 IQ points, and God knows I don't have that many more to spare.
Yes, because it might finally illuminate how stupid and wasteful of human life this whole thing has become.
I drove past a car collision the other day and learned on the news when I got home that it claimed a man's life. Someday, we might learn how stupid and wasteful of human life driving has become.
More on topic, I do not support sending troops that are at risk of re-injury back into a combat arena.
Most on topic ... what we see/hear from our resources is only a fraction of reality. Even those of us who might be avid in our search for Truth (tm) can only claim to know a fraction of what we are seeking. The difference that I see in this argument is what is being done with what we DON'T know. Some are using their lack of knowledge to claim (yet again) how evil Bush is. Some are using their lack of knowledge to assume that the soldier in the original post might not be required to don protective gear.
Seems to me that it's our LACK of information which causes our biases to shine the most.
Yes, because it might finally illuminate how stupid and wasteful of human life this whole thing has become.
If political power comes from the muzzle of a gun, people will remain complacent until that gun is pointed at them.
This administration will go to any lengths needed to maintain combat operations without instituting a draft. It would be like unplugging all of the leaks in the sinking ship they're still trying to sail around the world. Bush & Co. would, overnight, lose most of their ability to accomplish anything; even within the Republican party. The stream of rats jumping off the White House decks, the media coverage of the protests...makes me hungry for popcorn just thinking about it. What a show it would be!
I drove past a car collision the other day and learned on the news when I got home that it claimed a man's life. Someday, we might learn how stupid and wasteful of human life driving has become.
I'm sure the troops appreciate you comparing their deaths to a car crash.
Most on topic ... what we see/hear from our resources is only a fraction of reality. Even those of us who might be avid in our search for Truth (tm) can only claim to know a fraction of what we are seeking. The difference that I see in this argument is what is being done with what we DON'T know. Some are using their lack of knowledge to claim (yet again) how evil Bush is. Some are using their lack of knowledge to assume that the soldier in the original post might not be required to don protective gear.
Seems to me that it's our LACK of information which causes our biases to shine the most.
Ah yes, the time honored "But we don't know X, therefore all of your assertions, conclusions, and opinions are false and possibly ignorant!"
Sometimes I guess it takes getting run over the bus for some to know its there.
Ah yes, the time honored "But we don't know X, therefore all of your assertions, conclusions, and opinions are false and possibly ignorant!"
Sometimes I guess it takes getting run over the bus for some to know its there.
You taking my observation that 'it's what we don't know which unearths our biases' as an attack on a person's conclusions has, much to your chagrin, proven my point.
FWIW, never did I say that anyone's conclusions were false. I merely pointed out that, given the same information from the original post, each of us use that newfound knowledge (or perhaps what's NOT told) to draw a different conclusion. You insinuated that I was trying to say that certain people were "wrong" because you want me to have said that ... even though I didn't ... therefore proving my observation.
You insinuated that I was trying to say that certain people were "wrong" because you want me to have said that ... even though I didn't ... therefore proving my observation.
Kverin, non-specific comment directed at "people" and their "thoughts" usually get interpreted in the context in which they appear. If you say "the sky is blue" and I say "well perhaps you have that opinion because you don't know [stuff]", I am in effect saying, in a very evasive and convictionless way, that you're wrong.
Have a great day, Nenjin.
Oh I will. There isn't a single sniping, condescending, or intellectually dishonest comment you could make that would ruin my day today. Cheers.
I don't consider it a waste or a mistake, although there has been waste and mistakes made in it's execution.
But we have 100,000 troops stationed in Europe. We've got 40-50k stationed in Japan. I'm not sure either of those locations is in dire need of military support at this time.
I'd much rather see us replace disabling casualties from these groups than pull from our injured, or our National Guard.
If the mountain of evidence that exists regarding mismanagement of troops, equipment inadequacies and complete disregard for veterans is not enough right now, than it never will be enough. It is just that simple.
It is no longer possible for a rational mind to deny that this war is, at best, a wasteful and mismanaged tangent, and at worst, a farcical cluster-****.
If they were really hurting, he'd be deployed a 3x and then his entire enlisted time overseas, but he's not.
You probably just jinxed your nephew. With the "surge-plus" idea being floating around, the troop level in Iraq is going to rise.
Capacity post-op/post PT can be diniminshed, but not that greatly that a person cannot do everyday tasks including those that exclude body armor all together and still surve a military roll.
...
For all we know - he could be down graded to some other tasks such as a running supplies or even a cook.
All of Iraq is a war zone. Anyone deployed to Iraq needs to be wearing body armor. Of course, there isn't enough to go around, so he probably won't have any even if he could wear it.
Running supplies, like driving a truck? Nine out of 10 doctors do recommend a career in truck-driving for people with severe back problems.
Oh, and there are no cooks in the army anymore. The United Arab Emirate-based Halliburton subsidiary KBR does that now.
While we're on this topic, do you want to diagnose the other 73 soldiers referred to in the article, Dr. Loreleli? I'm sure you can think of a time when you had an uncle or cousin with the other medical conditions these soldiers have.
See, the real issue here isn't whether or not these guys can perform menial non-combat tasks. The issue is that we're asking them to deploy again instead of healing. Clearly, their convalescence is not a priority, or else we wouldn't be sending them back overseas. You don't send people into a war zone to heal up. Besides, how effective can this surge be if we're sending troops who aren't at their full effectiveness?
Most on topic ... what we see/hear from our resources is only a fraction of reality. Even those of us who might be avid in our search for Truth (tm) can only claim to know a fraction of what we are seeking. The difference that I see in this argument is what is being done with what we DON'T know. Some are using their lack of knowledge to claim (yet again) how evil Bush is. Some are using their lack of knowledge to assume that the soldier in the original post might not be required to don protective gear.
You know what, you're right. If we aren't omnipotent, what's the point in discussing anything at all?
For the record, nobody in this thread mentioned Bush until Kverin's post. I doubt Bush has any idea this is going on, and I'm sure he didn't order it.
I'm sure the troops appreciate you comparing their deaths to a car crash.
I'd say that was a reasonable comparison. Car wrecks are more or less random. When people go for a drive in their car, they don't know that they might be taking their life in their hands that particular day. Similarly, when the troops were deployed to Iraq, they had no way to knowing that anyone might want to do them harm.
Kverin, non-specific comment directed at "people" and their "thoughts" usually get interpreted in the context in which they appear. If you say "the sky is blue" and I say "well perhaps you have that opinion because you don't know [stuff]", I am in effect saying, in a very evasive and convictionless way, that you're wrong.
Your blue sky example does not work in this case. Now, had us both been given the information that the sky was blue, and that's all, the two of us might have come to differing conclusions of the color of the sky at sunset. I, being a graduate of The University of Texas at Austin, would say that the sky is burnt orange at sunset (IT IS BTW ). And perhaps you might say that the color of the sky at sunset is <insert alma mater color>.
My sole (only, uno, singular) point was that our biases (mine included) are often glaring when drawing conclusions from lack of knowledge. Hell, I even cited two completely different conclusions to better illustrate my point.
Somehow, you took that to mean something other than was both written and intended. Perhaps it was my car collision quip which set your bias toward me in motion.
Despite some of the derailment, there is no discussion unless we see the views from different viewpoints.
While we certainly have our lines, and sometimes disagree vehemently, for the most part we are civil and these discussions are only made better when both viewpoints are represented.
This situation really shouldn't have 2 sides, as I think most people, war supporters or not, would find this situation rather disgusting.
Troops give up alot of freedom for the benefits that being a member of our forces, including the possibility of losing their lives, however we don't put injured troops back out without convalesence because their effectiveness is diminished. Some might argue against mental disabilities (shell shock, post traumatic stress, etc) but few can argue against physical disabilities.
If this is rampant, this is horrible. If it is just a few isolated cases, this is horrible.
I haven't managed to find a reference to this anywhere except Salon and blogs linking to Salon. Since I refuse to suscribe, I can't really read the full article. Reading the intro on Salon it seems to me that the real discussion point isn't whether or not to send injured troops back to Iraq. It's whether the doctors in question are falsely downgrading the severity of soldiers injuries.
To jump on the anecdote bandwagon, I know guys who've had a minor back problem end up on disability because of it's persistence. Meanwhile my grandfather has had his spine fused twice and is still a competitive team roper. If you can't trust the doctors to correctly evaluate the status of the serviceman (and woman) then how can you make correct decisions on who gets deployed, who gets a desk job, and who gets medical retirement.
I am dismayed but not surprised that this is happening.
To tire out another long personal story, my husband was in the Navy for six years. He never once called in sick. People who did were considered lazy malingerers.
During the beginning of his time in the Navy, we got our Scuba diving certification. When we returned from this freshwater lagoon in Florida, he had a severe ear ache. I remember him that night. He had a fever and was in so much pain he was crying, tears streaming out of his eyes in buckets. For the record, I don't remember him ever crying before or since and we've been married for nine years.
The next morning he went to the medics. They gave him some sky blue colored pills and told him to take one with lots of water every four hours. They sent him back to class (he was in A school at the time). He did as they said, still in excruciating pain, and somehow managed to complete the day.
After class he returned to the medics. They didn't give him any pain medication. They gave him more blue pills. He wouldn't eat. He couldn't sleep because it hurt so much and I wouldn't let him take more than four Advil at a time.
We stayed up all night, until his eardrum burst. It literally popped. He said he remembers hearing a pop and it immediately felt better. Blood and pus poured out of his ear. And the smell. It was the most nasty smelling stuff I had ever seen, but I don't have kids so maybe that can top it.
We found out later that the blue pills were actually placebos. We had a medic friend who gave those to just about everyone who came to complain about a problem. Because a sugar pill and drinking lots of water solves many medical problems I guess. He actually lost some hearing capacity out of that ear, but it was not deemed "significant."
After that he never called in sick again. Because if they won't take him seriously when he's got a ruptured ear drum, when will they?
Realistically, narking to the new papers just pisses off the military and I would expect him to be cleaning bathrooms for next few months anyway.
Who cares if it pisses the military off? We deserve to know how crappily our troops and veterans are being treated. There are lots of cases throughout history where serious atrocities would have continued had the media not been involved.
I realize that is not how the military feels about it, much like I am sure the tobacco companies weren't happy when a "nark" told on them about their unfair practices. Unless the First Amendment changes, the media is not here to make everyone happy.
Its going to suck to be that guy when there is a mortar attack and hes gotta put on all his armor and run to the nearest fortified shelter.
I know from experience that it really sucks at 3 am
Innur Darkpoker
"if water was vodka and i was a duck i'd swim to the bottom and never come up, but water ain't vodka and im not a duck so pass me the bottle and shut the F*@# up." -jenn
I'd say that was a reasonable comparison. Car wrecks are more or less random. When people go for a drive in their car, they don't know that they might be taking their life in their hands that particular day. Similarly, when the troops were deployed to Iraq, they had no way to knowing that anyone might want to do them harm.
Dude I hope this is sarcasm, the average car crash is caused by one or more drivers acting like typical f**ktards while behind the wheel. virtually every car crash in the history of the automobile was caused by human error.
in a war injury and death is most often deliberate and the entire point of pointing things that shoot bullets and explosives at each other.
(edit, the filter missed one of my favorite swear words)
Life...is like a box of chocolates. A cheap, thoughtless, perfunctory gift that no one ever asks for. Unreturnable because all you get back is another box of chocolates. So, you're stuck with mostly undefinable whipped mint crap, mindlessly wolfed down when there's nothing else to eat while you're watching the game. Sure, once in a while you get a peanut butter cup or an English toffee but it's gone too fast and the taste is fleeting. In the end, you're left with nothing but broken bits filled with hardened jelly and teeth shattering nuts, which if you are desperate enough to eat leaves nothing but an empty box of useless brown paper wrappers.-- Cancer Man.
Dude I hope this is sarcasm, the average car crash is caused by one or more drivers acting like typical f**ktards while behind the wheel. virtually every car crash in the history of the automobile was caused by human error.
My brother had this happen. Fell through a roof in Iraq and busted both bones in one leg. Military gave him two weeks convalescent leave and sent him back to Iraq to do patrols.
Sending wounded troops into combat endangers them and the troops around them, as the uninjured troops have to slow down so that the other guy does not get left behind. That just makes it easier for our people to die.
Oh, I absolutely support our troops. Get them the hell outta there and for the love of god impeach that jackoff in the white house.
My analogy was in response to Nenjin's post implying that the War in Irag was a "stupid waste of human life". My reply was intended to state that there are other risks out there that can claim human life that could fall under the category of a stupid waste if looked at in a certain way. I just so happened to use car collisions as my example (perhaps it wasn't the best). Yes, most collisions are caused by human error. Contrary to Hodurbear's unadulterated sarcasm, however, you do take a chance every time you get in a car, airplane, bus, motorcycle, mountain bike, parachute, bungee cord, hang glider, etc. Yet, we still do it, for one reason or another. I may not understand why my cubemate at work skydives. He may not understand why I ride a motorcycle. That doesn't mean that both or neither are a waste of human life because people have died doing them.
Fortunate for most of us that may take on the risks we do, we are able to live another day to take on the same risks again tomorrow. For those that have lost a loved one in a tragedy involving one or more of those examples above, it could very well make you question the risk (motorcycle, for me btw ... and I still ride).
So how does this relate to our troops' deaths? Perhaps it doesn't relate directly. I suppose I was frustrated that Nenjin was using this thread as a soapbox for spouting off his Anti-War jargon. Sounds like, in his opinion, this war (and consequently, any deaths related to it) is too great a risk for us to be involved. Others might disagree. Similarly, some may believe that skydiving or riding a motorcycle (and consequently, any deaths related to it) is too great a risk. Clearly, others disagree.
I guess that's how I intended my analogy to work, if at all. Sounds like it didn't. I shouldn't have posted it, because I should have known that few would understand how I meant it. More importantly, it's not like me telling Nenjin or Krimzan that, just because they disagree with the risk does not make deaths related to it a waste, is going to impact them in any way.
Man, Kv, that sounds like one of those posts where you never come back to the Safehouse again after it.
Pep up, bud! The frequent posters here are all hardened board vets, forged in the flames of many a political battle. If the air gets scorching sometimes, well--usually, nobody really means it, and anyways, there's so many electrons between us all anyhow, what difference does it make?
If it's just a well-considered and articulate response--good good. Can't have too many of those, and we get few enough as it is.
This type of thing truely effects me. I am a 23 year old combat vet. Ive been out of Active Duty since June 25th 2005, after serving 3 years out of high school. I am currently a full time college student working on getting my RN. A few months ago I recieved redeployment orders to reactivate me from the Inactive Reserve. I Currently have Patellofemoral Pain Syndrom. In laymons terms, Knee pain cause by my Patella (knee) grinding with my Femur and Tibia. My doctors say that without my knee brace and physical theropy it will get worse and worse as I age. They highly suggest that I do not do any type of running, jumping, heavy lifting, kneeling ect ect.. Anything that an Infantryman (what i was) should be doing or else it will cause perminate damage. I filed for a deferment of my deployment and it was not approved, so now on june 3rd, I must report down to Fort Benning so have theyre doctors take a look at me and see if I am combat efficent. My life frakin sucks.
Gan - Wish you the best of luck with your current situation. They really are screwing you. If you cause further damage to your knee it could end your chances at becoming an RN (I'm sure you know that). Hopefully the doctors at Fort Benning will put any possible agendas behind them and evaluate your injury objectively.
I'm also a working to become an RN. Ok, time to study and get off forums.
). And perhaps you might say that the color of the sky at sunset is <insert alma mater color>.
