Some times ago Ngreth spoke about an eventual poison type for raid. Are this kind of poison in the plans?

I ask this question because the poison system which is very good in solo and help a lot in group is not designed to help rogue raiders and we really need to be helped in my opinion.

Indeed there are many raid content where personnally i dont use DPS poisons because even with the new aggro adjustment it is too risky to use them and finally deserves the guild and my dps. (example Krond fight in MMM or other bluring type mobs).

Moreover even if the poison system allow us to fill a bit the DPS gap with DPS casters this is not the case with the other melee DPS especially Zerk and monks who have been adjusted too and without any counterpart (no more aggro, no need to pay or spend time to prepare poisons for dps...)

In raid rogues have 1minute of true burning (30 sec rogue fury + frenzy stabbing and 30sec assassin), we can use deadeye or blinding speed too for 30 more seconds but the gain in dps is too marginal to be really helpful.

When we compare to zerks they have around 2min30 of very good burn with maybe 1 minute of less efficient burn discs and now with the revamp of frenzy and their new disc their sustained dps without discing is very close to our (with us using poisons). If you add the fact that we need to be constantly in the back of the mob if we dont want to lose dps it is very hard for us to catch up and impossible in fights where we cant use poisons or cant be easily in the back of the mob.

Sorry for the comparison with zerkers i dont want them to be nerfed or anything , its just because my twin plays a zerk and i know this class like mine so i can compare both everyday in group content and raid. We have like 7000 cumulated AA so i think i had time to compare a bit eheh.
I dont think the solution have to be a nerf because zerkers needed some help to be competitive with DPS casters and in group situation, we just need some helping tool for raid in my opinion (raid poison or new disc, increase duration of existing discs, increase backstab skill, etc...)

What makes you think the rogue poison is "very good" in solo situations?

when i say "solo" i mean one player but we are agree we need a merc healer =)

With a merc healer, poisons dps + slow make a good combo and with offensive and defensive AA and tier5 group gear you can do a lot of things in the game.

I just wanted to note the good points of the poison system for groupers. But this post is focused mostly on raid content and i suppose we are agree on that.

I find the current poison works excellent on raids, no idea what you are going on about. If you fear aggro especially after the change you need to talk to your tanks about learning to do their job.

Questions I ask are as follows;
Are your rogues keeping your tanks supplied with Scorpion's Agony VI at the very least? and higher when the components are available?
Are your rogues keeping all your melee dps supplied with Spider's Bite VI at the very least?
Are you keeping Quellious Trauma on all the time?

If the answer to any of those questions is no, start there first.

The answer is yes for all but i spoke about fights where an overaggro can cause the death of the rogue or the wipe of the guild (doing krond in mmm atm with my guild and you certainly know it is dangerous for the raid to overaggro if you have not the correct weapon set), even with tanks wearing poisons and with agro reducing poison if you proc 2 or 3 times in a row youll agro especially at the start of a fight, so i prefer not using them on certain fights.

Moreover i play in a semi casual guild and not all the warriors in my guild have all the AA and stuff to aggro efficiently, and i find a little strange to count on others to play enough (to have AA and gear) for me to be able to use my potential.

In the other hand like i said using poisons allow us to be competitive if we are in the back, but if those 2 conditions are not possible the whole fight things are different.
Perhaps other high end rogues with latest gear can give their feeling about their raid dps against other classes, personnally i wear tier1 sod weapons like other guild members, so i cant talk for high end raiders.

Then you need to fight with poisons more appropriate to the content/players you are with. Clearly in your case the biggest "Boom" isn't the wisest choice. Switch out to lower level poisons and or poisons with a lower damage value but higher proc count. The bigger the damage the more hate it generates. If this poison system was in place in mmm you would be using level 80 max poisons. Try applying that philosophy and see if it doesn't net better results for you.

One other bit of info on Krond - use your poisons when he is first attacked, all discs, massive burn......then click them off. You should plan on getting him down to less than 50% before he moves (and blurs).

yes those ideas are all good, thx for that, but the main problem is we have been helped with poisons cause we needed to, but monks and zerkers have been helped too so i have the feeling to be back to the starting square (with more aggro...)

I have some thoughts. They mostly go with "doom" based poisons. These poisons would do HUGE damage, after some time has passed.

These poisons would have very limited use on basepop and normal NPC's because they do not last long enough. While on the other hand... on a raid, the target is more likely to be "up" at that later time. The issue left is the length before doom.

60 seconds is "safe" as most group mobs will be dead, and basepop well on the way to being dead already, if not dead. But it is a bit long, and possibly an issue on raids.

45 seconds is better, but starts to become "useful" on group rares and tough raid basepop.

30 seconds starts to become useful in group situations, and this is NOT the goal for the poison.

Another idea is a "normal" poisons, with enhanced damage and even more enhanced reduction in the hate it gives... but it requires components achieved on raids. This makes them valuable and rare enough to not use in non-raid content.

The problems is that they CAN work on non raid content, and the "first time" players go through the raid they may not be available. And players have indicated that they do not like rare things like this that are expendable.

Another idea requires a code change. Perhaps a high DPS poison, that only works on NPC's with > 2million HP.

The problems are, it requires a code change, and not all raids have targets at this level of HP (though realistically most do) and some raid basepop may have HP at that range. Also who knows... EVENTUALLY group pop may get that far in HP...

Though lots of that help is on the "group" game, not the raid game.

Going along with your idea of a poison that would do a large amount of damage a long time after it is applied, might I suggest something along the lines of the Necromancer "Splurt" DoT? Starts out with tiny damage per tick, but increases with each tick, and eventually does a lot of damage per tick before it wears off.

Just a thought.

We aren't complaining hard enough about Dot's like Bleed already?

DoT's are bad for a rogue..let's not ask for more then we already have to endure.

Ngreth,

My vote would be for poisons tailored to npc's with greater then 2mil hps. Simply because anything that is a 1 shot timer has a good deal of drawbacks attached to it. While it is possible that group content mobs might eventually get there, gear will be such at that time that poison would honestly a trivial balance concern.

Concerning aggro...Given that raid players "Should" be capable of better hate management then the average non raid group player, It would seem to me that massive "Raid" poisons should have more hate associated with them and require more thoughtful use.

Rarity only becomes a concern when it becomes a major balance issue for us. If for example these poisons do so much dps that it becomes a mandatory requirement and the drops are exceptionally rare then it becomes an issue. Consider that you can have anywhere from 3-6+ rogues in a given raid guild and those drops are needing to be shared amongst those rogues. Also factor in fail rates and other things and that is a tough call on the drop rate. In rogue heavy guilds you could easily end up in a situation where only 1 or two of those rogues get a poison component and due to those factors you end up with an extremely limited supply. In rogue light guilds you end up with 1 rogue banking enough that they can use constantly and then other classes start screaming for a nerf.

Flat-rate DoTs are (relatively) bad for rogues. DoTs that ramp up damage over time also start out with lower aggro, which ideally gives tanks time to get out in the lead. And what's the alternative, anyway? Proc-based poisons are a string of DD's, which can be streaky and cause unpredictable aggro. They also carry a chunk of "a spell got cast on me" aggro with each and every proc - DoTs only do that once. Personally, I'm convinced that Bleed somehow adds more aggro than "a spell got cast on me" + 1200 x 3 ... if not, it needs an artificial aggro redux.

Generally speaking, poisons should be DoTs - it only makes sense. I love the "Splurt-type DoT" idea for rogue poisons - in fact I endorsed it before, though I may have framed the idea a bit differently.

a 'Splurt' type poison does sound wicked... and i agree, sounds very poison-like as i don't always expect a poison to take full effect immediately but gain in crippling effects over time.

i also like the idea of a 'doom' type of poison as well.

I like that doom idea. Set it up like strike of ssra (single shot) that adds a buff to the mob with a timer, timer ends and mob takes X dmg.

Limiting factors would be the buff timer.

Could be a 2sec cast timer, can have multiple buffs of same type on the mob BUT from different rogues. (just like 3 necros having the same DoT on a mob)

Initial hit adds X amount of agro, no continuous string of agro like a regular DoT, so escape not working isn't an issue (until the big boom).

Timers could be set for varied event durations.

Lowest timer could be 45 sec so the group rogue could make use of one type on big named mobs.

Other timers scaled so that the longer the buff the more dmg and crits are possible.

2min = 30k
4min = 45k
6min = 75k
8min = 100k
10min = 150k

Just examples. It would mean that on long fights that the guild has probably done 3 or more times successfully that the rogues could use the longer timers. On newer content you could use lower timers, even the 45sec type.

That would be primarily a boost for raid rogues due to the timers.

Those numbers are just bs type, just the general idea sounds real good.

Laters,

Thx Ngreth the discussion has started

Perhaps the more viable and easy to implement rais type poisons should be the one that would land after a set amount of time, indeed it doesnt need a code change and if the time to land is well defined it will be useful in raid and not in group (the goal of the poison).
About the time to land 60sec or a little less (54sec or 9 tick?) seems fine in my opinion, less would affect too much the group content, and reasonably we dont fight (or very rarely) raid mobs who take less than a minute to kill.

The idea for a poison that would work on mobs with a defined set of hp is interesting too, but a bit more complicated apparently.

To resume i love those 2 ideas, on the other side, the 3rd one requiring raid drops is not a good option because if the components are rare we will not use them in group but not in most of the raid either, personnally when i have rare components i always wait the "good" moment to use them and finally never use them

I also like the doom idea. A 60 second timer would actually help us soloing as well....and we do still need help in that area.

There are downsides. "Doom" is a burst DPS enhancer and does nothing for the sustained kings of melee DPS role. We would be poison wizards. How would escape work if we escaped before doom went off?

A poison aura might be interesting, especially if it damaged / affected other players (it would keep them out of the rear arc!!). It could operate similar to the lithe stance and burn endurance and give an inherent poison damage as well as a bonus to poisons used at the same time. It would have plusses and minuses.

We can also die and still out dps Pallys

DoT's in any form Break Escape and Smokescreen...or did you forget that?

From a roleplaying perspective yes poisons "Should" be DoT's..however From the mechanics of the rogue class in EQ gameplay, DoT's break our most valuable skills. Sorry unless the Devs can give me 100% assurance that Escape will work anyhow (They can't cause they couldn't even fix bleed to do this) I am 100% against any long term DoT.

The doom poisons would have some hate on "apply" if no damage 100 to 400 or so. If Damage is done, it would of course relate to the damage.

As for "rare" there is no great solution for variable amount of rogues. Can drop lets say 6 parts per raid. at 50% fail that is 3 poisons for 3 rogues to use next time. In the end I am not terribly happy with "rare" poisons. I can do them if players decide they want them, but there will always be issues. It could also come from raid basepop, but would have to be rare on them, and that makes it more variable on acquiring them.

I do like the "target needs 2m max HP" but that needs code so would be a while away.

Yes, they can break escape and Smokescreen... but at the same time if these DoT poisons were made powerful or 'splurt' type then it would require careful planning on when to use... for instance solo would not be bad especially if we have reasonable means of pulling solo mobs and not pulling above our heads.

It just takes some planning on when to use them.

After all the wrok youve done so far im more than wiling to wait for your Doom concept. I am vehemently against dots having anythign to do with a raid solution, personally.

Ok, throught this whole thread, every time i see something about doom type poison or delayed procing.. Im reminded of spells like Promised Renewal, since may 'main' was a cleric. Cast it on the target, gives an 18 second timer, when timer ticks off, they get healed for 10k, and the Agro for the heal goes to the person getting the heal, NOT the cleric who cast it.

Ok.. Apply this to a "raid" poison, proc it on the mob, they get a 60 second timer, when it ticks down, they get take 10k damage ( whatever the previous posters time/dmg ratios were), Agro goes to... Who? You mention the initial proc agro would go to the rogue, ok fine.. but when that 10k timebomb goes off, whats going to happen to the agro?

Now, the main reason I havnt posted before on this thread, was because Id LOVE to see this happen.. but i know if it does, there will be repatches and nerfs and all hell breaking loose to fix it.. but here is what i see happening with This poison:

~ Created for Raid use.. but heres a 'grouper'.. or Soloer who decides to use it.
Run up, tag mob A, if poison is a 1 shot, run and reapply, .. if its a proc buff, run to mob B.. Tag mobs B, then C, then D.. as the 'doom' counter continues to tick down on mob A, then B, then C, .. Rogue runs from mob to mob, 'setting the timer' on mob after mob.. and as they tick off the mobs fall over dead in his wake. ~

Any Damage value high enough for 'raid mobs' is going to be very nice on these trains... and anything set low enough to curb this, would be pointless to the raids. Upping the Reuse timer ( not the cast time ! ) on the doom poisons/procs would curb this a bit. Set the reuse time of the Doom poison to the same timer as the Doom time itself. This will make it so the rogue can only have 1 doom proc set at a time. a 45 second countdown, has a 45 second cooldown.. when it 'detonates' you can reproc. Or set it like the Promised Renewal type healer spells, that if you apply a new doom, over an old doom the timer resets. The first option Could allow for multiple rogues to be able to 'stack' dooms if they didnt block each other, and would limit a solo rogue to 1 doom at a tim; but the second method limits it to 1 doom at a time per target.. Like clerics have with PR.

Of course, personally.. Id love to continue pulling Blue trains like i do now .. go wild on them while thorns anoys them.. as i get heals, healer pulls an agro here and there giving me a sweet spot to aim at.... then add in that the whole time im moving from mob to mob, setting a nice little granade in his pocket.. to go Boom 1 minute later for 10k.. most of these train mulls last more than a minute anyway.. a nice 10k blast per mob near the end would be rather grattifying.. especially on that last bastage that desides to try and get away and alert friends.. tick, tick BOOOOM !

Last I checked we were discussing raiding type poisons in this thread..not more group stuff. DoT's on a raid have no redeeming qualities for a rogue.

I don't like the doom type idea..has the same problems as DoT and an even bigger potential aggro headache. Having a major aggro hit go off at some point during the fight and flipping a mob at the wrong time is a potential raid wipe waiting to happen.

I thought you said <<Concerning aggro...Given that raid players "Should" be capable of better hate management then the average non raid group player, It would seem to me that massive "Raid" poisons should have more hate associated with them and require more thoughtful use.>>

Alternative 1 - you get a "more DPS button" with no risk...it will never happen

Alternative 2 - you get a "For thoughtful use only" button with risk. By now it should be obvious that NGreth likes that type of option.

Doom seems to fit under alternative 2

You are correct, Tivia - I momentarily forgot about DoTs ruining escape.

I think the answer lies in a major overhaul for escape - let it put a short duration buff on us (10 ticks, perhaps) that pulses a fade effect each tick.

It would give us a rough approximation of the "silent casting" tool that wizards so enjoy - and still work just as well for a "get the h-e-double-hockeysticks out of Dodge" panic button.

It will work as long as you don't have >60 seconds worth of DoTs on a mob. (not likely)

Last time I got hit with a DOOM type spell, when the spell expired and the trigger effect killed me, the message I got was "Tenstone hit Tenstone for xx,xxx points of non-melee damage. Tenstone has been slain by Tenstone." Now I may be wrong, but if a DOOM type poison operated on the same principle, then the mob woould hit itself with the trigger effect and thus not generate any additional agro for the rogue.

good point.

Except that neither massive DoT's or Doom's fall under thoughtful use.

DoT's ruin escape and thus I remain flat out against them. I am sorry but i don't even consider it a point worth arguing.

As for Doom's, that is clearly a single shot poison you load before the fight. There is no possible way to predict how the fight is going to go 100% of the time every time. Using something that pops on your first swing and is going to trigger 30-60 seconds later, is nothing more then a gamble. You "Hope" the fight is going to go as expected but have no way to know for sure. If you have a bad start (Happens even on farm content from time to time) and a tank goes down 50 seconds in and all of a sudden you have a bunch of 50k Dooms go off, now you have the mob bouncing all over the place making the next tanks job even harder. It is a Scenario that I find far less desirable then a Proc poison that has high hate associated with it that requires me to keep an eye on how much it has proced and know exactly where I am on the hate list. Plus if the damage is indeed associated with the mob and not the rogue who cast it, that makes it unparsable and screw that.

Unattributed damage makes me nervous. Did they ever fix all the corpse poofing issues?

There has been much work to get the doom "credit" to the caster of the doom. This is alot to get people credit for their DPS, but also their hate. So the hate should go to the caster.

And darn you for seeing how this will get abused. (thanks! ) hrm :( Not sure what to do about that.

Well. I would put some of the hate reduction in, but it would not be aggro free, so you would have the issues you mentioned if the tank goes down early then the procs go off, and the secondary tank does not have enough hate yet to overcome that amount added. so *if* say it does 50k damage... my hate target would be say 5k (this is not set in stone, could be more or less). Not trivial hate, but certainly not as bad as the damage done.

I am not as sure on credit for NPC based dooms, but there has been lots of work done for "crediting" player based doom.

As a raid rogue, escape just drops ya to bottom of hate list and sometimes not even that far, so, who cares if u have to pop escape and u are still on the hate list from a dot. Unless u are worried about dying on a wipe and want to escape it. I could care less if i die if the rest of my guildies are dying too. I like the doom idea and even a splurt poison ( especially one that stacks alot, each proc stacks a dot on the mob instead of overwriting it)

I still think a Proc poison that is flagged for npc's with greater then 2mil hps is the way to go. Honestly there are just far too many variables and issues associated with a Doom poison. I do understand the concern for group content eventually possibly reaching that hp marker...however at the point that it does, I would hope that we have bigger poisons with a higher hp requirement. Just my thoughts on that. Do understand that I am not against hate generation, actually I thought the amount of hate decrease on current poisons was too much to be honest. However I also prefer that I can control that hate by means of using the tools at my disposal. Using the tank going down early example, if we are mid wipe and I have a 60 second Doom. I don't want to have to figure out how to survive 60 seconds without escape against mobs that can take off over 40k hps in a matter of 1 or two rounds. Please remember that Escape is a 27 minute recast at it's fastest, we aren't monks who get Imitate death on a 4 minute recast.

Escape for a Raid rogue has two functions, Bottom of the hate list after a Big burn as you mentioned and to save your tail if things go horribly wrong. I am glad you don't mind dieing, however I don't share that sentiment. If I can avoid death during a wipe then I am going to do everything I can. Having a bunch of poisons on a mob that effectively disable all of my tools to avoid death is not an acceptible solution to our dps issue. If we are going to have what little utility we have left taken away then I don't want to be taking first place on the parse by the small margins that I currently do, I want to be in first place by an extremely large gap as the tradeoff for complete loss of utility. Since the Devs clearly aren't going to give us that dps gap, then I will stick to fighting anything that stops us from being able to use Escape.

I would rather they gives us a doom poison or a splurt poison to help with dps on raid mobs, and not care about stupid escape not working as good. I dont want a code change, unless it is to fix escape to clear all agro including dot agro. Could make the dot agro cleared like it does with dead mobs that had dotted ya. I would rather see em give us something to try and maybe twink it then say " i dont want no ****in dots to screw with my escape and not being first on the parse ". This is about poisons and not the gap we currently have in DPS vs other classes. Poisons wasnt intended to fix that gap anyways.

Been many times we've won events due to not escaping like a ***** and just fighting til the end.

I would love to try it out , hook us up.

I think it would be about time that we could finally do the things that other class'es have been doing for ages. All you have to do is go to just about any zone (personal favorite OBF)....

see the corpse.... distance..... corpse.... distance..... corpse?
that is where a rogue solo's.

See the Corpse, Corpse, Corpse......... up to twenty?
who is solo'ing that Pile? Could be a few classes out solo'ing, or the holy trinity! But it sure isn't a rogue!
I see absolutely no reason from lore, roleplaying perspective, or any other reason that we should not be able to do as you describe above, since so many other class'es can already!

Hell, the other class'es have done it as long as I have played the game, and it hasn't been nerfed! Time we got ours too, after waiting this long to get this system fixed!

And if someone wants to cry nerf..... let em, cause you know which CB class it will be! 'cides, if we could drop mobs like that, maybe we could actually be considered for group spots once again!

I really fail to see any abuse.

Using your example (just a number) the Doom does 50k.
Let's also assume there is a 10 second cast time on the Doom poison

A Darkroot Carrion Gatherer (level 70 mob in TSS, Direwind) has 55000HP. As an early MMM level rogue, I can take on about 3 or 4 of these mushrooms at a time. Do you really think that the system is likely to be abused because I would be able to tag 4 or 5, have them all beat upon me or my merc cleric, and then within 60 seconds, plus cast time (50secs), they all just about die? This would assume my casting is not interrupted. The AA experience reward would be roughly 2% per mob, slightly less. All total, we are talking an AA reward of 1 AA every 20 minutes thanks to the Doom poison. There are solo classes (Ranger with Headshot) that can achieve 40 or 50 times that many AA's in the same time period.

A Scarlet Legion Weaponmaster (level 78 mob in Ashengate, TSS) has 100,000HP. I can easily take one at a time, but 2 gets dangerous and 3 is most likely death. The AA reward is 4% per mob, but in this case I could only kill 2 mobs in 2 minutes with Doom poison.

A Tortured Treant (level 80 mob in Hills of Shade) has 150,000HP and most likely is about the limit of mobs that I can solo safely. The average solo time is 3 minutes per mob. With a Doom type poison, 3 casts would be 3 minutes. 1 cast plus fighting would possibly shorten the kill time to 2 minutes. These mobs give about 6% of an AA per kill.

The Mining Behemoth (Level 85 Raid mob, Steam Factory) has more than 15 million HP and on a typical raid as a rogue, I would do 800,000 damage over 4 minutes. A single 50k Doom poison strike would represent 6% extra DPS.

A 50k Doom poison would help a rogue solo but is so far from "abuse" it's not even funny. If the cast time is really going to be 10 seconds, that is lost DPS time anyway.

A 50k Doom poison would provide a nice little bang for a raid rogue but it is not over powering, nor abusive. It won't fix our DPS problems overnight either, but every little helps.

I 100% agree with both Pad's and Cat's posts just above! What was described as tagging those mobs one after another is what Wizzy's, Druid's, Rangers do every single day soloing not to mention Necro's... i fail to see how/why this would be overpowering unless the dmg done is substantially more than 50k in one shot...

There's an awful lot that can go wrong within that 60 sec time period of the doom firing that can render it mute to us... like adds uncontrolled we have no means of kiting half as well as the classes i listed above... it's a dangerous scenario that can't be exploited... again, unless the dmg from the doom is substantially high.

Except they tried to make that happen with bleed and never got it working. To think that is going to change is on par with sticking your head in the sand. They couldn't get it working during the entire development of SoD and now the Dev team is even smaller..Sorry I am not on board with changes like this in the hope of some code change that clearly isn't going to happen. As for poison not being intended to fix the dps gap, I agree that was the intention originally, however at this point it is more then obvious it is the fix we are getting because otherwise changes would of been made in other areas instead of monks and zerks getting yet another Boost.

Been many times we have won as well, been many we have lost. However when the raid leaders call "Camp out", I rather like having an option to not eat an unnecessary death. Apparently your guild is less organized then mine on wipes and or that was a feeble attempt at trying to insinuate that I bail on raids early.

since bleed is a disc and not a poison , please stay on topic. We have one dev willing to help us out and I dont mind testing out a doom like poison or a splurt like poison to see if it helps us out in soloing and/or raiding. Crying about escape is just idiotic like back when u cried about smokescreen locking out escape. Back then u didnt even used smokescreen. If u dont want to try it, then dont, to each his own, but dont come here and cry when ppl are trying to help us.

I am not crying that Ngreth is trying to help us, I am pointing out my disagreement to a certain type of poison and why. You have your opinion I have mine. I stated why I disagree with yours, you stated why you disagree with mine. Quit trying to turn this into something it isn't. Bleed being a disc and not a poison is irrelevant. It is a DoT spell effect as far as the game code is concerned and acts no different then any poison dot/doom. Doom is nothing more then an extended DoT with all the damage coming at once after it's timer runs down instead of hitting a percentage every tick.

DoTs in any shape or form are bad for our class because it disables pretty much all of our useful abilities. Why we keep coming back to this argument is beyond me. Last I checked rogues like you were complaining last year about being a one trick pony, why then are you now fighting for a change that would indeed make us that one trick pony because it would break our other tricks? That just doesn't even make any sense. No wonder the devs don't have a clue what to do with us, even the ones who think they know change their minds every 6 months. I will repeat myself, any type of DoT is a retarded implementation for our class. It does not help our class in any way shape or form. The Cons far out weigh the pros. If the EQ engine could be made to Ignore Hate generated by DoT's, then we wouldn't be having this argument and I would agree with you. However it can't and has been stated multiple times by the Devs that it can't. Continuing to hope that by some miracle they will wing this amazing code change to a 11+ year old game engine to allow this is just insane.

You want Better poisons for Raiding? Fine, take the current offerings and jack up their Damage values with a hate modifier and hp modifier to make them applicable to raid mobs. You want to test DoT and Doom crap, do that on group content where it doesn't matter.

Although you are correct theoretically, in practice Escape has been broken on raids since forever or at least since they introduced masses of see SOS trash and named that add you to their hate table if you are in the zone.

We are no longer masters of escape or corpse draggers. Nerves of Steel hasn't worked in eons.

The simple thing is that the game has changed, and escape is purely an aggro evasion mechanism more than 50% of the time.

Time to add "Advanced SoS", and give the populus non-fixed invis 2.

Questions Ngreth, if you can answer them.

A buff proc, can it be a set number of procs that trigger at particular times during the timer?? If so it'd be like a weird reverse DoT, we would have the icon but the dmg would be to our target.

Example:: Poison A:: Has buff timer of 2min. It triggers every 30sec IF melee is active and in range. If attack is off or target out of range then that proc is lost.

Each proc is like a mini-doom, smaller doses of dmg in a time frame but not a DoT that screws escape. Also, if a rogue turns off attack to evade during the "time of trigger" the poison doesn't trigger, the proc is lost. In that same regard, if a rogue escapes and doesn't turn on attack during timer with a target in range, the poison timer will just fade away with no triggerings. Basically, if attacking and in melee range of target it'll proc, otherwise the proc is wasted.

Not a DoT, not a doom buff on target, no HUGE dmg hit just smaller ones.

That is of course if that very first question is yes.

As far as raid poisons, mobs are tagged as raid. Why can't a poison proc check the target to see if it is affected? Like snare on mobs that can't be snared, or slow on mobs that can't be slowed. It just checks their tag (raid or regular). It would be just an additional check in the code, just like with snare / slow / mez etc...

If that is doable then you can have a different set of poisons with different timers and bigger dmg for raid targets.

That would eliminate raid poison use on regular mobs. Regular mob poison with same design would be good simply because we could use it to avoid SPIKES of 2-3 procs in a row that suck agro to us.

I'm just throwing stuff out there. Figuring a way to avoid DoT and HUGE SPIKES is rough.

I'm tired... well, I'm always tired. For all I know when I read this in a day or so I'll think I was nuts, but most likely it's just the meds... I hope.

Laters,

Not certain how well received this idea will be because alot of rogues are already complaining about having to keep so many poisons on them. That said, I am not one of those rogues, I don't mind dedicating 1 or even two full bags to poisons. This sounds like an interesting compromise...not certain how possible it is, but it is an option I would be interested in seeing discussed further.

Did anyone see my proposed fix for escape a few posts up? It's a workaround for hate-less DoTs that still attribute damage to the rogue ... not perfect, but it can also be used as a tool to counter hate generation for a massive burn.

Yes, it was suggested in beta as well and the Devs shot it down cold. It would work nicely though, but for whatever reason the Devs still seem convinced that escape is over powered and refuse to discuss any change to it. Which completely baffles me as to how they come to that conclusion given that Imitate death is better in almost every respect.

I think it's a great possible solution, but i won't hold my breath until it's implemented heh =/

Nope. Procs are "unpredictable" I can tune for "approximately" every X seconds, but not a guaranteed time.

I can tune it up to a near guarantee every "swing" but that is the best I can do, and if I do this it just overshadows all other procs you have on you preventing them from procing.

I will have this thought in the back of my mind and see if I can do something with dooms, but I think I cannot... but I will see if something percolates.

A full minute of escape? We could pound on the mob and not get aggro or keep losing aggro? This method seems problematic.

I know if I zone with shaman, then return to zone before slow wears off, I do not get any aggro, why is that possible?