What would you like to see added to the rogues arsenal to add greater balance with the new expansion-GoD.......
Hide/Sneak across zone borders SET TRAPS- fire,cold,poison damage
Throwing weapons
Apply Poison animation
Stun With back stab
Poison on throwing daggers
Just a few things that the live team is faced with daily in emails....
I personally think that it would be cool if they gave the rogue the ability to scale walls with out the use of a ladder. It would add more to their assassin role and would be an interesting AA class ability.
I was wondering what kind of feedback you have to this and what other things you can think of that would add just a little more to the fun of playing a rogue.
1) A more useful poison system. Can't stress this enough. Even if this is the only change SOE would implement for the rogues, I would be more than happy. A few thoughts:
a) Revitalize old world type poison system (proc with the first hit) with the ability to apply poison to more than the main-hand piercer at a time. Meaning, prepare several poisoned weapons prior to engagement. Make it an AA ability "Venomous Combat" or some-such: 3AAs to poison 2 daggers at a time; 6 AAs to poison up to 4 weapons including throwing weapons; 12AAs to poison up to 8 weapons including throwing weapons. (I don't think it is necessary to have more than 8 poisoned weapons per fight). To keep the balance implement a timer that doesn't allow to use all poisoned weapons one after another. Say, 1 every tick... or 1 every 2 ticks but scale down with additional AAs. Explain the timer as the need to see if the poison took hold for the rogue to know if more is necessary. Poisons were supposed to be our utility, give us the ability to use them as such.
b) PoP type poisons -- there must be a forced proc and instead of being completely random it should follow some logic. (not sure if it is already implemented with the new melee disciplines, but it should not be tied to disciplines to begin with)
c) Poison resist checks -- poisons should not be resisted more than wizzy/mage/etc. spells on average, especially higher tier poisons. Not sure if it is already the case, but I was rather unlucky as more than 70% of my attempts to poison mobs throughout my hunting resulted in resists.
d) Allow other classes to apply poison to their weapons but only with lower tier poisons. Also, ONLY rogues will continue to be able to make poisons. (Can't stress the last point enough). For all who say that eventually other classes will want to make poison too, I give you the example of shammie potions: all love them, only shammies make them, noone complains. Shammies already make their potions, gnomes tinker, wizzies port, mages summon, clerics rez, many others buff, etc. Rogues should get the same chance at making profit from their class ability.
2) Illusions that don't drop on zoning -- it is ridiculous that because I cross a zone I'm forced to remove the mask. Zones are artificial (with exception of teleportation).
3) Mobs seeing through SoS should only have a chance at seeing the rogue instead of it being a certainty. Same should apply to all PvP even with "see invis" items and spells. Sneak/hide backstab is the bread and butter of a rogue. why take it away completely in PvP?
4) Make throwing useful -- extend the range, increase the damage. We get deadly strikes with throwing, but most rogues give up throwing for archery.
5) Do something about the discrepancy between uber and non-uber rogues on the background of a much smaller diffrence between uber/non-uber wizzies, for example, in terms of DPS. Not exactly sure what to do though (nerfing non-gear dependent classes comes to mind, heheh)
If any of these will actually be implemented I think the hell will freeze over.
Well, I'm a bit biased, as my main is a wizard not a rogue. I feel that rogues are overall very balanced as they are, and even the new melee changes perhaps were a bit much, but we will see. That being said and out of the way, however:
Hide/Sneak across borders should have always been there. It's not too bad right now, most borders are fairly safe, though alot of the ones that aren't are ones you would really wish they were. And then there's the ones that get trained. I'm all for this one, just as a general fix--though I'd bet one of the reasons they don't is as a failsafe from locked up routines---spellcasting, skills, and other things all reset when you zone.
Set traps is a fairly neat idea, especially if instead of damage it's utility type traps like root, snare, etc... I also had the idea of saving the traps off LDON chests--you roll really well on a disarm, and you get a no-rent 1 charge vial of embalming fumes you can cast in an area, for instance. Risk vs. Reward, those things are way more deadly to players than they can be to mobs, and you have to risk setting them off on yourself before you can use it. I'd say that this was balanced.
Apply Poison animation-- /shrug. According to some rogues, no rogue in his right mind ever uses poisons, so how would anyone notice if the animation was broken? Of course, if rogues do use poisons, all those dps arguments vs. casters go out the window since rogues can snare/slow/root etc.. as well. Eh, I'm a bit bitter, ignore this. You want a cool animation, I can support that--they should fix monk attack animations and Iksar swimming animations while they are at it. The Luclin animations were the purest crap ever.
Stun with Backstab---eh... that depends on what the level cap on that stun would be. Regardless of level however, as an offensive disc or perhaps a manuver in the opening system it might be ok, but I doubt you want to add stun to every backstab since stun is uber-taunt. It's how pally's lock down taunt, so in this case I'd be careful what you wish for. So long as either the re-use isn't to often, or the level cap too high (55+ mobs), I'd think this would be a healthy additon. But if it can stun mobs 55+, then the re-use should be fairly long (40+ min), If the cap is 55, then the reuse could be every 5-10ish min in my opinion. The equivalent difference is wizard stun ability from level 20-56, vs. the upgraded 60+ stuns like Telekin that work on mobs up to 65. Rogues already get a poison that will stun mobs over 55, I don't know that it would be balanced if they could add it to their backstab at will.
Poison on Throwing Daggers. Poison needs to be reworked by someone with a clue anyway. Of COURSE poison should work on ranged weapons, daggers included. There should also be a dart gun weapon similar to a bow, with dart ammunition that could be poisoned or imbued with procs just like bows only working off the regular thrown skill.
Climbing Walls won't happen. The world is not rendered in such a way as to make it possible. Also, some dungeons were designed with one way areas involving drops on purpose that this would break. On The Other Hand....we are getting a completly new graphic engine soon---and this includes re-rendered zones apparently. When they do this, flight and wall climbing may become possible, so only time can tell. But as it is now, if you use lev to get up into some places you should not be, you run into odd partitions that you cannot see and can get trapped in mid air or on top of buildings in several areas---the world itself was not designed with this kind of mobility in mind.
As for ideas that would enhance the playing of a rogue:
99% of the problem with playing a rogue in EQ is content. The developers had 'vision', but that vision was shortsighted and myopic. If zones were designed with little tidbits that were rogue skill friendly, rogues would not have sucked pre-kunark and become what they are now.
++'mobs' that are traps should be designed. They spawn in places, attack all not on their faction, are rooted, and attack slowly to simulate reset time. They are super invisable--but successfully using detect traps reveals them for a short time, as does triggering--for a moment or 2 after triggering, they can be attacked by anyone and possibly be destroyed , but they also have perfect ripost, so that attacking them triggers them over and over. Disarming them should grant xp and despawn the mob permanantly--subject to the same re-pop rules that govern the zone, though it should not spawn staticly in the dungeon, but at several differenent points. Advanced disarm skills through either high skill level, critical success, or AA should allow you to change the 'trap mobs' faction to friendly to the party, instead striking npc's on opposing factions to the rogue. Let me know if part of that didn't make sense.
++Hidden and Safe rooms within dungeons. Rooms that are scattered around dungeons with hidden doors that require sense traps to be found, and open locks to open. These rooms could contain NPC's that will heal the party, recharge mana, perhaps give mini quests, etc... They might include groundspawn food such as special funguses native to that dungeon, or just cool scenery. They might also contain a short walkway and a miniboss that drops good money and special loot--not something that can be soloed, but something challenging to the group. Instancing would work well with this idea.
++Allow rogues to become fences for goods through AA. Level 1 of the fence AA allows them to be a merchant with bad prices (like the OT clockwork gnomes). Level 2 makes then a neutral/normal price fence, buying goods at normal prices with neutral faction adjustments. Level 3 allows Rogues to buy items as if they were Allied/Same Race/Same Religion/Max Charisma etc... good prices. This would work similar to /trader mode, only work everywhere, and the rogue has no access to the items sold to him in fence mode--this is purely for the conveince of the party to sell to a vendor wherever they are--as if he is acting on consignment from a Rogue Guild somewhere. Upgrades to the AA might allow him to stock standard gear in /fence mode, Rogue gear at higher aa like lockpicks and no-rent items with 1 charge buffs to raise or grant rogue skills, and possibly even spell components and similiar items at the highest of the AA's. A FURTHER upgrade might also allow a /banker function which allows PC's to click on the rogue and use him as a banker as well. Talk about unique utility, I would surgically graft a rogue into a group for these functions alone, even if he only did 2 dps and randomly dotted my party every 15 min.
++Make Pick Pockets work similar to Forage. Rather than removing goods from the current pool of loot on a mob, make PP give a rogue anything from the zone's forage table, random amounts of money up to standard mob cash for the level of the mob being pp'd, and perhaps even special rogue only items usefull in rogue quests or just sellable for some extra cash--not standard cash drops, but artwork, statues, etc... stuff that theives like to steal.
There's my 2 cp, and you didn't even have to steal it.
I would like my hide/sneak not to break on zoning, and my illusions also to hold. I would like a seperate pp table and a faster submerged sneak. These are things that I think are feasable. However for the wish upon a star I would like to stalk humanoid mobs/players, and a more reasonable poison system with a merchant or three in PoK that sells 90% of the ingredients I need at a fair price. ____________
Brennaen Cadwallander
62nd Season Redeemed Barbarian Skald
____________
Quote:Rather than removing goods from the current pool of loot on a mob, make PP give a rogue anything from the zone's forage table
HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHA ... NO!
Wood Elf Rogues can already forage and most of it is useless crap as it is. Why would i want to steal such utter useless junk?
That is a flat out nerf idea because someone must have once picked your quad kite.
Lay off the KEI Dazzler Twodirks High Speed Quisinart for Hire
Guildleader of the Blades of Honor.
Monsters Slain, Pockets Picked, Corpses Dragged, and more.
No job too small, no fee too large
Card Carrying Member of The Safehouse.
Classes are not that out of balance -AbsorEQ
I'm pretty sure he didn't mean pickpocket should actually use the forage table. He's suggesting a "pickpocket table" of loot. Rather than taking what the mob spawned with, it would come from some special table defined for that zone. I guess the artwork and statues thing would depend on how you want to play the pickpocket angle. Do you want it to be just a way for a rogue to make some extra cash (via sellable items) or should it be an alternate way to get loot off mobs (the sneaky way, rather than flat out killing them)?
I like the way pickpocketing takes what a mob actually has, as would really happen. I don't like the way it takes away from what the group gets and creates a "rogue vs. group" sort of situation. Perhaps have a copy of the mob's spawn loot table? So the rogue's rewards would still be random based on whatever the mob spawned with, but it wouldn't directly take away from direct loot. Maybe have Lore items not show up on the PP copy table, to avoid getting twice as many good items from a mob (though some mobs do drop multiple Lore items). -------------------------
Invissibill
Llibisivni
(and more poison shiznat. I'd really like to be able to poison arrows/throwing daggers, and possibly poison other people's blades....for a fee of course)
I also think, i should be able to add poison elemental damage to my blade for xxx amount of time
Quote:Stun With back stab You don't want this kinda agro
Asking Santa Troll for a seperate loot table for pickpocket that doesnt effect the drop table would be a good one; and a revamp to the poisen system would be another imho.
"The crows maintain,
a single crow could destroy
heaven, that is doubtless,
but doesn't move heaven,
for, heaven implies precisely:
impossibility of crows."
"Rogues" to me, have always projected an image of an independent, self-sufficient type of character, which is in direct contradiction to the EverQuest Rogue, one of (if not THE) most dependent classes in the game.
Relying on constant 'babysitting' for things like FA and Ferocity are something I'd like to move away from. Perhaps the next expansion will bring long-duration buffs of this type? Self-only clickies with lesser powered variants?
Rogues will always be handicapped in the solo department due to NPC insta-facing. A half-tick 'hold movement' ability (the same effect Root has on a PC) would help this incredibly while not affecting our DPS in a group/raid scenario. This would also be very useful when a mob goes to chase down someone other than the tank, or runs off unsnared, etc.
I'd like to see improvements to the trap system. Traps should be invisible NPC's and disarming a trap should "de-spawn" it. In non-ldon zones, the traps would re-spawn at the zone's normal respawn rate.
Passive trap avoidance and detection... 'you sense there is a trap nearby' which would indicate that there is a trap in range for you to sense/disarm. Also if this happens, you will not set off the trap via normal movement.
I'd also really like to see a backstab-specific AA, either for crits or min dmg increase.
"Assassination Mastery" that either raises assassination level caps or increases chance of assassination (or both!) would be awesome too.
Quote:Offhand backstab
Damage bonus applied to offhandI'm not a fan of these - Doing so would devalue non-piercing and slower offhand choices even if they have high ratios. Your Sister in Arms,
i dont mind fast traps for raid content. After all there isnt a set rule for respawn rate of mobs in raid content either. They can be instant if thats what the design calls for.
"I would like my hide/sneak not to break on zoning, and my illusions also to hold. I would like a seperate pp table and a faster submerged sneak."
Absolutely agree 100%. Would like to see all of these, as soon as possible. The slow sneak underwater is a particular thorn in my side, as is the alternate pickpocket loot table, considering THERE USED TO BE ONE!!! hide/sneak and illusions not breaking on zoning would be an extremely nice upgrade, too.
As for dreamland... having the ability to set AoE traps, or even DD traps would be FANTASTIC.
Quote:Wood Elf Rogues can already forage and most of it is useless crap as it is. Why would i want to steal such utter useless junk?
Hi! Read much Dazzler? Instead of stopping at
Quote:Make Pick Pockets work similar to Forage. Rather than removing goods from the current pool of loot on a mob, make PP give a rogue anything from the zone's forage table
try to read the whole post. It looks alot better when read in total, like so:
Quote:Make Pick Pockets work similar to Forage. Rather than removing goods from the current pool of loot on a mob, make PP give a rogue anything from the zone's forage table, random amounts of money up to standard mob cash for the level of the mob being pp'd, and perhaps even special rogue only items usefull in rogue quests or just sellable for some extra cash--not standard cash drops, but artwork, statues, etc... stuff that theives like to steal.
It becomes even cooler if you pick out certain aspects of it that are an improvement over the current system, though it does remove the ability for a rogue to suck 80% of the money out of a LDON by taking the gems. Check it out:
Quote:Make Pick Pockets work similar to Forage(as in not exactly like). Rather than removing goods from the current pool of loot on a mob, make PP give a rogue anything from the zone's forage table,(+) random amounts of money up to standard mob cash for the level of the mob being pp'd(it could be noted that this would work on mobs that don't normally have cash, like say 90% of tier 1 pop), and perhaps even special rogue only items usefull in rogue quests or just sellable for some extra cash(this would make up some of the cash difference in losing what few diamonds and stuff that you would have stolen from your group)--not standard cash drops, but artwork, statues, etc(this is mostly because I like RP touches when I can get them, and rogues should steal more than a mobs jewelry and cash when they visit someones home.)... stuff that theives like to steal.
Quote:That is a flat out nerf idea because someone must have once picked your quad kite.
Lay off the KEI
Actually, I was thinking of a rogue improvement. As it is, groups I'm in rarely consider rogues for grouping as they are a danger to the cash outcome, and where I play, that 150-300 pp per adventure is actually important. Most of that amount comes from perfectly pickable items, and I play mostly in N.Ro where most mobs are pickable for groups in the mid-high 50's.
As for another way to make cash, imagine if my Fence idea went in, and you could become a source for utility items only obtainable from rogues, like 1 use magic lockpicks, Sneak Potions (way more useful in some circumstances than invis potions), Amulet of Escape (item that wipes aggro like escape one time, with an hour recharge time via modrod type code, usable by anyone)---lots of posiblities are there, if you could get SOE to agree with you. Also, like I said, if I could bring a rogue and be able to sell and bank in the dungeon at any time, or buy food, water, arrows, etc... though a mage is good for the food/water/arrows thing.
Antrygus Windrose
PLEASE stop with the poison non sence. Poison is broken and ALWAYS will be, its a waste of time and will never be implemented properly. Lets focus on DAMAGE, as that is all a rogue is in EQ, sad but true.
How about some aa that umm, actually effect backstab?? Imagine wizards with no AA that effected their best nukes?? Nothing super crazy, just maybe an AA that increased backstab crits frequency/damage, or one that allowed a chance at a triple backstab, something for our MAIN skill. Rogues need to be seperated again from the other dps classes. WAY too many classes can do rogue type dps and offer much more to the group.
Quote:PLEASE stop with the poison non sence. Poison is broken and ALWAYS will be, its a waste of time and will never be implemented properly. Lets focus on DAMAGE, as that is all a rogue is in EQ, sad but true.
It is attitudes like yours that contribute to poisons not being a proirity on dev's list of things-to-do. Things will never change if the general attitude is: "Oh well, they'll never fix it, so lets not even ask about it."
Rogues are at the top of the list or very close to it when it comes to sustained-DPS. New disciplines when tweaked properly will give us a burst-DPS boost. It is always nice to see a DPS increase to rogues, but it does very little for class balancing (we still won't be able to solo, we still won't have anything interesting where our fighting style is concerned). There is no art to hitting the BS button when it pops up, so I wouldn't enjoy the game more if I do more damage per one push of a button.
Poison system is a brilliant idea and befitting the rogue class. It opens up a world of possibilities. It is sad that it is not well implemented. Fixing things, even with the current system, is not that hard -- considerably lower prices on poison ingredients, make them more readily available, and make all poisons stackable. Thats it! Problem solved! I guarantee that if this were to ever happen, 90% of the rogues would use poisons in everyday hunting.
1. Full speed underwater/strafing/backwards sneak
2. Force Process
3. Lure Poisons
4. Ranged Poisons
Those four, and i'd be happy. Sneak speed is a bug anyway. -- Marauder Arafain Entreri, 65 Deceiver
-- Arafein Soulstriker, 54 Champion Relic (deceased)
-- Arafax Kokorozan, 20 Monk Giantfriend (missing)
-- Formerly of Requiem of Souls and Crusaders of Plilo
-- Formerly of The Rathe Server, now of Zebuxoruk
-- My ghetto gear
"Once, in the old west, a gentleman shot a professional gunfighter in the back. When asked why he didn't give the other chap a chance to draw, he replied, 'Well, he's dead and I'm alive and that's how I wanted it to be." -- from Red Planet, Robert A. Heinlein
~Expanded/enchanced poison system worth the time to work on
~SoS/Clickie Illusions lasting across zones (like horses, invis, etc)
~Enhanced throwing weapon creation tables (i.e.; more variety to crafted throwing weapons, even extended to making it class-only past a certain level)
~More in-depth trap and lock system NOT extended to caster classes... *scowls*
Some great ideas...If only the members of the safehouse fourms could be the live team /sigh.......
They really need to fix our poison.... all its good for at the moment is this Grandmaster Assassin's Seal... And they really make it easy to get huh...
__________________
61 Shaman-Nermerl DaKat
24 Rogue-Dizy
Personally, I think poisons are basically fine in theory. The dev team actually changed a lot of things that we have asked for over time. I am happy that I can either farm greenies or sit in an xp group and get components for the pop poison. Being able to make charged poisons and re-use vials address the old stacking issues and cuts down on cost. (OK, you need to get the GM vial, I'm ok with that.) We asked that poison add a proc instead of being single use. We got a LOT of what we wanted the last time around.
The only serious problem with poison is that procs aren't additive. If my weapon has ProcA that goes off 1/10 hits on average once I add a poison proc (ProcB) that by itself would go off 1/10 hits, each of those only go off 1/20 hits -- i.e. I don't get 2 procs in 10 hits, I still get 1 proc every 10 hits, just half the time its my weapon proc and half the time its the poison proc.
That alone makes poison completely useless.
I would like to see assassinate improved, even if that just means increasing the level of the mob we can assassinate to the highest level green at 65. It still gripes my bum that monks and warriors get triple attack at 60 and those still give them something useful at 65, while we get assassinate which was barely useful at 60, much less 65!
hell ya. We should get triple attack at 70 (like every other melee class has) which would also apply to backstabs of course. -and- we should get offhand backstab which can hit for up to 3 times, just like off-hand duel weild checks!
Im sure no one would complain, I mean in theory that would only up our DPS by 40 or 50%
AOE CORPSE PULLING - Dont care if it costs me 12 aa's to let me pull 9 corpses at a time, It really sucks to be the only rogue on a raid trying to pull 50 corpses.
Apart from that I dont really care, more utility means I would probably have to do more so just those two please.
I read the whole post but i'll be damned if hitting pickpocket is gonna net me a fishing grub, roots, water flask, berries or other total useless crap.
All great ideas here IMO, with exception for the triple and offhand backstab of course. The only thing i can really wish for and be reasonable about is if they would make our poison skills useful in every aspect of the game. Honestly, they implemented it, might as well give us a reason to use it.
Also, would someone fill me in on why so many rogues want to "solo" in an MMORPG?? If you want to be alone there are plenty of games out there that allow you to be by yourself (like DIABLO FOR EXAMPLE!)
Or perhaps i am misinterpreting the reason behind this all together...
Rue the day you were born,
Blessed be the day you die,
And i shall be the one...
To deliver that blessing.
Quote:Also, would someone fill me in on why so many rogues want to "solo" in an MMORPG??Except for Rogues, almost any class can solo situationally with reasonable success. Warriors are probably next-lowest on the food chain here.
Our inability to do so is due primarily to npc insta-facing removing opportunity to backstab in a solo situation. Very simply, we're rendered unable to solo due to an inflexible game mechanic.
Now, I'm not asking to solo-grind an aa in 20mins or even tank down blue-con PoP mobs, but it's pretty rough for the casual player to bear the handicap we have in the solo department.
Example: my Paladin. Jezzie is not a pure melee class and I have 10 levels, 1000 HP, FAR more time invested in gear and a BIG damage advantage over her. Yet, she can go toe-to-toe mobs that I cannot. It's kind of scary what she can do to some mobs in Charasis where I'd hit Escape on the second they aggro'ed me because I know I have no chance of winning without a disc. Especially when they have damage shields - outch! Edited by: JazyaVechette at: 12/31/03 8:55 am
From what ive read, there are a couple of good, reasonable ideas that we can ask for.
A) hide/sneak/illusion not disapeering when zoning
B) faster hide/sneaking under water
C) longer disarm on traps, and complete disarming on LDoN traps.
D) passive sense trap skill
E) assassination AAs. I think only a raise chance to assassinate AA would be possible, b/c raising the level would be too powerful.
F) Jazya's hold skill is genius. A little, short hold type thing that we can use in soloing. All it'll do is hold the mob in place for maybe 4-5 seconds, disabling the auto-face for that time, and allow us to scoot around the mob for a backstab. Also nice for fleeing mobs.
Then of course there is the poison system, and its...f*cked up, lol. no idea wot to do here :P
thats all i see atm, those r pretty reasonable imho.
Quote:Except for Rogues, almost any class can solo situationally with reasonable success. Warriors are probably next-lowest on the food chain here.
Our inability to do so is due primarily to npc insta-facing removing opportunity to backstab in a solo situation. Very simply, we're rendered unable to solo due to an inflexible game mechanic.
Now, I'm not asking to solo-grind an aa in 20mins or even tank down blue-con PoP mobs, but it's pretty rough for the casual player to bear the handicap we have in the solo department.
Two nights ago, a warrior guildie soloed PoStorms giants. He also duoed BoT giants, the other person was a ranger who only did spot light healing (and, with a bit of downtime, he probably wouldn't have needed that).
Forgot to add, for anyone who thinks our DPS is out of line (mainly directed at those who come here from other boards to troll/snipe), here's the results of Yalp (new version that catches spell/dot damage properly) run on log last night, BoT epad camp:
Ele/Time Rogue: 180.18
Ele/Time Enchanter: 613.13 (just the enchanter..didn't include the DC pet)
Ele/Time Monk: 126.91
Time Beastlord (one of the highest-ranked in the game, across all servers):
Player: 83.34
Pet: 53.84
Pre-Ele Wizard: 283.19
Ele Necromancer: 340.86 (didn't include pet....went thru a few. this is JUST the necro)
The above is for your above-average group of people. These aren't "best case" parses. Never should a best-case-only argument be used, as only .1%, at best, will fall into that category. The people listed, with the exception of the wizard and necro, are exceptions to the "general populace", being Elemental and Time equipped. The parse was run over a 3 1/2 hour period of standard aa grinding, not to test maximum output, although I can guarantee that the rogue always works for maximum output (I should know...I'm that rogue).
The arguments I always hear are versatility vs dps from the peanut gallery visitors to Safehouse of those that insist on trolling/insulting rogues who ask for versatility, making outlandish claims of our general dps being so great, we don't deserve any versatility. Of course, many times, these claims include "I grouped with a rogues once who..."
Yes, we do too much dps to deserve any sort of versatility... *rolls eyes*
Sorry, had to add in all this due to the already-occurring, and anticipated future trolls from other boards coming here to flame this thread, and others. Sorry to otherwise clutter up the thread... Edited by: Cybelle at: 12/31/03 11:53 am
Quote:I read the whole post but i'll be damned if hitting pickpocket is gonna net me a fishing grub, roots, water flask, berries or other total useless crap.
As opposed to now, where you have the chance to either 1.) steal from the group, or 2) getting something no one cares about?
Currently the rogues on the PP threads talk about all you getting is useless crap. Food would at least be mildly useful, and give you a chance at getting other stuff that is foragable only if your not a wood elf. (grease from innovation for Nightmare Bows comes to mind, as an example).
My suggested change is a nerf only in the respect that there is no longer a chance for the rogue to walk out of a long group or LDON with 1-2kpp in gems that should have gone to the group.
It replaces this with the chance to get, at minimum, something usefull, some cash, and possibly some unique cash sellables.
Antrygus Windrose
Its a myth that a rogue will come away from an LDoN adventure or an average xp group with 1-2kpp in gems, so stop propagating it. Edited by: Sajuiil at: 12/31/03 1:39 pm
Quote:here's the results of Yalp (new version that catches spell/dot damage properly) run on log last night, BoT epad camp:
1) No parser shows 3rd party dot damage correctly because dot damage isn't shown by the EQ client
2) Yalp doesn't do the dps figure for casters correctly. It should start the dps figure when the first character engages, instead it starts the dps figure when the person begins attacking. That means that a caster that only casts one spell per fight has an exaggerated dps figure. It is much more useful to look at total damage done over the course of the adventure session.
Then I'll post total damage for the 3 1/2 hours when I get to my home computer. Total damage was aligned well with the dps reports, though... I was shocked, personally...thought the beastie did far more, thought the enchanter did far less, thought the necro and wizard were swapped.
On a side note, does ANYONE know how to shut off eq logging and make it STAY off? I have to turn it off every time I log in, even if it's from being kicked to character select screen, I have to shut it off again.
There is a setting in the eqclient.ini that determines if logging is turned on by default. Change it to false. Traigos Ode
Level 65 Magi
<Afterlife>
yer dps for the enchanter... curious if he had a DC pet as you seem to indicate in yer disclaimer or if he was charming via COD, or are you just counting the percent increases from his buffs? feel free to give a lil more info next time.
Considering I said it was Yalp... If you've ever used it, it divides offensive damage by person(s) listed in the logs as delivering the blow. It was a standard enchanter DC of a lesser elemental in BoT... Didn't think it was that complicated... DC'd mob, surprisingly, did less dps (as parsed) than the beastie's pet.
bleh...edited out the rant... Edited by: Cybelle at: 12/31/03 4:42 pm
i just want two things
#1 rogues able to poison throwing weps and arrows
#2 rogue poisons that work ( well work better ) on all mobs in game. like spells do for casters. honestly what would a caster be if there spells did not work on mobs in pop . well u did that to us rogues for the most part.
Quote:I meant when either trying for epic notes you get water, 2 silver, water, fishing grub, root, root, 3 gold ect instead of getting what's on the mob.
That's not how high level Foraging works. In fact, they had to, several years ago, make it so that if you are getting the hungry/thirsty message your next successful Forage be a Food/water because High level rangers were starving to death while throwing out 'rare' forages. Higher the skill, higher the chance of getting rarer items. If PP was the same way, PPing mobs would have a better chance of coming away with various quest items as opposed to food and trash.
Quote:Its a myth that a rogue will come away from an LDoN adventure or an average xp group with 1-2kpp in gems, so stop propagating it.
It's not a myth, it actually happens. It does not happen every time, but it has a chance of happening any time your in an area where gems are going to drop.
This is a different thread however, one that usually reaches a couple hundred posts of flames before getting locked. Just do a search, I'm sure you'll find the last one.
Antrygus Windrose
I like the way pickpocketing takes what a mob actually has, as would really happen. I don't like the way it takes away from what the group gets and creates a "rogue vs. group" sort of situation. Perhaps have a copy of the mob's spawn loot table? So the rogue's rewards would still be random based on whatever the mob spawned with, but it wouldn't directly take away from direct loot. Maybe have Lore items not show up on the PP copy table, to avoid getting twice as many good items from a mob (though some mobs do drop multiple Lore items).
I think it is more correct to ask for them to BRING BACK the duplicate loot tables. (Yes, I am giving away my age again). Turlo Lomon
Officer of Final Fury
Lets do a simple calculation taking the average "stolen loot" you suggest: 1.5k Thats about 6 blue diamonds or so.
What freaking LDoN dungeons do you go to that dropped 6 blue diamonds?
You say regular XP group (in LoY lets say) -- how long do you have to XP to get 6 blue diamonds dropped?
How good do you think our pickpocketing is? We do not succeed with every attempt even with maxed out skill (on some mobs the success rate is pathetically low). There is an 8 sec (or so) refresh on pickpocketing, so we can't pickpocket too many times in regular fights. Its additional agro that no rogue wants. There is only 1/6 chances that you will pickpocket and "item" (ie something worthy, like a gem) everything else is cash. We cannot pickpocket magic items (nerfed because of whiners like you). We cannot pickpocket weapons or shields (thats where disarm comes in).
Just because some ass of a rogue decided to brag about their exaggerated pickpocketing prowess, doesn't mean the skill is that damaging to the groups. It was said many times before --casters demanding gems as compensation and main looters that hold off the top are robbing groups a lot more than any rogue that I have ever encountered.
Adding a separate loot table is just a stupid idea for two simple reasons:
1) Seeing that the rogues can pickpocket freely, the "rogue" loot table would be immediately nerfed into useless junk. I do not foresee any dev letting rogues become rich on thievery, it will cause riots among other classes -- WHAT rogues get more than we do?
2) If rogues get a decent separate loot table, they will be excluded by most groups from the "main" loot. Do you how many problems can arise from that?
While duplicate tables would satisfy the whiners that come to rogue boards to complain about thievery it would be immediately removed -AGAIN! see 2) above (sigh, it is a great idea though).
In my opinion, nerf the success rate a little more or make the punishment for getting caught a lot more severe than "Stop! Thief!" (put some risk into pickpocketing), but let us pickpocket anything that is on the mob's loot table.
As a side note, I don't understand why people get their panties in a bunch over rogue pickpocketing, while almost every other class gets: KEI whoring, and 100pp rezzes, and 35pp shammy buffs, and 25pp porting services, and generous contributions for summoned stuff, 10pp for SOW and the list goes on. (notice that all melees are screwed once again. At least rogues have their pickpocket, but NOooo! other classes want it nerfed and even removed).
In this game we all would like certain things, i think this is different to how each person plays the game. sure i would like to have sneak and hide stick through zones, and i would love to not have to hit the illusion after zoning, and hey the drag corpse thing would rock if i could do more than one at a time.
but what are we really after, the sneak and illusions things are both roleplaying devices, I zone in and out of zones and there are a few times i get caught with my pants down, but hey its better than nothing, most races zone and if they dont have invis on, or go into a zone where everyone sees through they dont have a chance. and the illusion thing to me is just me being lazy.
in fact the drag corpse thing is benificial so that the half of the raid that consents me wont send me a tell every five minutes or spam consent me just for thier corpse.
What do we want, My job as a rogue in groups and in raids is to dish out damage and not take any back. If i turn the mob it hurts the group and the raid.
The majority of the time i play and 90 something % of us play is in a grop or raid situation, and yes before you start, the zoning hidden thing helps and all, but its all utility, the reason we exist is DPS and not getting hit while doing it.
I would like to see something where while we are fighting we can go balls to the wall and have less of a chance of getting attention from the mob. They gave warriors more damage and agro stuffs, why not give us more damage and less aggro stuff.
Im not shooting down any idea about sneak and stuff, but for me, the greatest thing is the ability to execute my job more effectively. I love it when rogues get recognition at a raid or group situation where we handled our aggro and did awesome damage. A big fight where we dont die due to aggro is a good fight in my book.
So whoever the rep is for sony, the suggestions in this post are good, but make us better at what we are suppose to do in a fight, thats what counts. either that or just tell us we arent getting any thing other than what we already have got. that way we wont keep guessing.
thanks
jeramie
None deserve praise for doing good who hath not the heart of doing evil; for good is nothing more than indolence or weakness of the will
Jeramie's Stuff
