I've posted about this before, but then I saw something on EQ Ranger that made me want to post it again:
"here is some log info off 2 trueshot attempts i did with max master archery and trueshot. using a 30/38 bow and summoned arrows.
first trueshot kinda sucked cause there wasnt really anything to shoot at and the second faired alot better.
here is my favorite part
[Wed Dec 19 21:45:49 2001] Vann Scores a critical hit!(1191)
[Wed Dec 19 21:45:49 2001] a small mushroom was hit by non-melee for 1191 points of damage.
[Wed Dec 19 21:45:49 2001] You hit a small mushroom for 1191 points of damage.
[Wed Dec 19 21:45:51 2001] Your bow shot did double dmg.
[Wed Dec 19 21:45:51 2001] Vann Scores a critical hit!(1246)
[Wed Dec 19 21:45:51 2001] a small mushroom was hit by non-melee for 1246 points of damage.
[Wed Dec 19 21:45:51 2001] You hit a small mushroom for 1246 points of damage. "
This guy is dishing out almost 2.5k in two seconds, possibly while moving, using no mana. And this damage is the same whether its PvP or PvE. Casters on the other hand enjoy a spell nerf that reduces their attacks to 66%.
This makes absolutely no sense, neither logically nor if you look at the balance in the high end PvP game.
The solution is to nerf ALL type of damage done in PvP to the same level. This includes spells, damage shields, archery, melee, pets. This would improve PvP balance considerably.
Your example is hopelessly flawed... You are talking about the dmg that ONE class at 59-60 can do with a disc and alternate advancement and requesting a nerf on all melee dmg done by the 8 classes that rely in some part on melee done at ALL levels! If you wanted to look at melee dmg you would have to break it down into classes and then further break it down into ranges of lvl (1-20, 21-30, 31-40, 41-50, 51-54, 55-60 perhaps). That gives you 48 catagories(6 lvl rangers and 8 classes that use melee). After that you have the dmg done by each of the 55+ groups WITH special abilities.
That gives you 53 groups so how on Earth could you call for the nerf of ALL melee dmg including the 52 groups you didn't mention based on the dmg done by one! What we have here is a vivid case without an actual argument and a very very poor solution.
While rangers with trueshot AND AA archery skills may do too much dmg in pvp I don't think rogues of all lvls need the bs nerf your asking for.
Ummmm NO. Take a look at the spdat file. Kambik I know you played your rogue to 40 something and are perhaps under the impression that we just become gods of pvp (some exaggeration here) post epic and especially post 55+. Thats just not true.
Here are a few examples of wizard spell dmg at 60...
Garrison's Superior Sundering 8 second cast 2100 dmg non lure fire based dd. pvp dmg 1386 max pvp dps 173 Casts required to kill a 60 rogue 2 or 16 seconds unless he has good resists.
Ice Spear of Solist 4 second cast time 1200 dmg non lure cold based dd. pvp dmg 800 max pvp dps 200 casts required to kill a 60 rogue 3 or 12 seconds unless the rogue has good resists.
Lure of Ice 4.5 second cast time 825 lure cold dd. pvp dmg 545 pvp dps 117 Casts required to kill a 60 rogue 4 or 18 seconds regardless of resists.
In addition the following abilities are available with luclin
the ability to reduce casting time by up to 10%
The ability to do double dmg on up to 7% of spells.
Do you really think a removal of the dmg nerf is neccesary?
If I do the math on Aerimus's example, that means any wizard able to get a 3-second cast off can nuke me for up to 1090 points of unresistable damage if he has the required aaxp abilities. Two of those, and I am dead. And, quite frankly, it's not that hard to get a 3-second cast off.
And, apparently, this isn't enough for some people, who would like for a wizard to be able to do a maximum of 2180 completely unresistable dmg in a 3-second cast.
Smart. -- Baron Arafain Entreri, 60 Assassin
-- Arafein Soulstriker, 53 Champion...err, 52, die Vox!
-- Arafax Kokorozan, 20 Monk Giantfriend
-- Requiem of Souls
-- Formerly of The Rathe Server, now of Zebuxoruk [i]"Once, in the old west, a gentleman shot a professional gunfighter in the back. When asked why he didn't give the other chap a chance to draw, he replied, 'Well, he's dead and I'm alive and that's how I wanted it to be." -- from <u>Red Planet</u>, Robert A. Heinlein
the reason spell damage is nerfed in pvp is because players dont have mob hitpoints at lvl 60. if warriors had 10k+ hp like some mobs then it would make sense to do full damage. of course casters would have 3-5k hp at that lvl. but we dont. a wiz could drop any caster in the game with full spell damage at lvl 60, one shot easy kills all over the place. harm touch? sure its on a timer but hell if it one shots every int caster in game what the hell go for it.
spells are meant to help drop epic mobs, when you make players into epic mobs then you can take away the pvp nerf.
of course I cant totally argue with the melee damage nerf in pvp but it really only comes down to melee vrs caster and casters only have about 67 ways to escape while melees have to chase em down and kill em.
if youre gonna go through the trouble of nerfing melee damage at the high end then you need to further nerf casters at the low end. lower channeling caps, higher base resists for melees at lower lvls. lower damage from casters.
in all what I am sayin is its way to much of a pain in the ass for vi to deal with. I mean come on the friggin melee range bug is STILL in the game.
18 seconds to kill someone isn't very long AT ALL. You don't need to get hit for the full 18 seconds let me explain some basic tactics to ya...
A) Run around till you get some distance between you and the melee when you have it start casting
B) Shadowstep then cast
C) Begin the fight levitated and fly around where your out of reach of melee dmg till the melee pumices.
D) Take the inititive and start the fight. This gives you one free nuke if you suprise them at least maybe 2.
As far as the non lure nukes they are basicly for first strikes and against people with poor resist gear on. While every 60 rogue surely possesses decent resist gear it doesn't mean hes always wearing it. Even on non item loot servers people take off resist gear to max hp, ac, stats
Get this concept through your head full melee dmg vs full spell dmg is UNBALANCED. PVE and PVP is different. Melees make up for how much slower they do dmg than casters with the fact that they can keep doing that same dps as long as they are breathin. PVP fights are quick and dirty. Without the spell dmg nerf wizards have a max dps with the quick dd skill of 333 resistable dmg or 204 unresistable dmg. This makes sense when your talking about taking out a mob with thousands of up. This does not make sense when fighting a rogue with 1800 hp.
My guess is that someone is going to respond with "but rogues do 100dps!" or something like that. Giving the figure for the dmg done by a rogue with excellent gear with full raid buffs.
If you wanna compare it with the dps of a rogue please be sure its the dmg done by a rogue with epic in main hand, some weapon around .5 or .6 dmg dly ratio in offhand with 40% haste and no atk or str buffs so it can be something aproaching a fair comparision with a wizard using spells and skills available to all wizards of that lvl.
get it through your head that full spell dammage would be no more imballanced than full melee dammage is. ever seen a caster get taken down in one round by a tantors tusk or one of those axes level 25 giants in FM drop? or a rogue with RB double backstab a medding caster and take him down to a bubble of hp? and those arnt once every 72 minuets disc like trueshot either.
basically what im saying is casters need a freakin upgrade. you said that rogues dont become pvp gods 55+, but you sure seem to think wizards do at 60. melee dammage shouldnt be nerfed, but casters need one hell of an upgrade to be viable pvpers at high levels. Liringlas Lookinglass
HWW~ Bard of the 56th Song
-he ability to raise resists with points is not an upgrade it would cost more time exping than camping better resist gear would.
-Crititical backstabs isn't a balance issue since nukers can get critical hits with nukes as well.
-I don't know about pvp vs classes other than rogues but I don't think casters need an upgrade vs rogues. Heres a clue while a a double bs while medding may be great but you have to be medding while your enemy is aproaching you to kill you. How about you med with your back to a wall and have see invis up.
Besides which 2 lures cast on a suprised rogue has a similar effect. Thus there is no balance issue.
-I know enough about pvp to know that full spell dmg at 1-50 would be a mistake.
-As for the high end I don't know enough about other classes to make a good judgement call but I know that full spell dmg would be a mistake vs rogues.
-BTW I'd be easily in favor of any measure that would eliminate any means of 1 shot kills in pvp.
-As for sitting double backstabs well not counting crits...seems like about 40% of backstabs are double at 55 and even sitting doesn't mean you will get a max hit on every hit. 300s are quite common on sitting people.
So if a wizards with 1k hp and a 600 dmg mannaskin up gets hit he loses half his skin and is still at full hp on a single bs and is STILL at full hp minus skin on a double.
If you don't have skin up well thats your fault those peridots you use to cast it don't cost any more than my poisons.
By contract if a 55 wizard suprises the rogue rather than the other way around 2 lures of flame could easily take the rogue down to half.
But you know what? Neither case is likely to result in a death and do you know why? Because people when they get hurt that bad at the start of a fight always run and more often then not make it. I know I usually do.
-I think its sad that people point out the fact that x rogue can take x wizard down to 1 bulb of hp when it requires so many conditions to come out that way and is a gross overstatement of rogues actual power.
conditions required for a rogue to take a wiz down to 1 bulb of hp in one double...
-Wizard is sitting with his back to the rogue
-Wizard has no skin spell up or has it near the top where it is easily dispelled
-Rogue gets a double bs (40% of the time)
-Rogue gets a 400 on both hits
Rogues do great dmg, definately but we don't just walk around whacking casters left and right with the greatest of ease k? Its like saying that since wizards can crit on spells and since the a 55 wizard with spell casting fury 3 will kill a rogue in 9 seconds since lure of flame takes 4.5 seconds to cast and crits do 850 dmg. In reality there are complications like the fact that a criting twice in a row would happen only 1 in 200 times and the fact that a wizard can just stand still and chain cast because he will get interupted.
The problem is you are understating the limitations of rogues abilities and overstating yours. Like implying that requiring the wizard to get 4 spells off in order to kill someone is a ridiculous expectation. As a 55 rogue I don't think lures are too powerfull but I do think that if caster dmg improves by a full 50% it WILL be at that point overpowered.
As far as wizards becoming pvp gods at 60 guess what vs rogues they do.
Mannaburn will one shot rogues rangers bards monks wizards enchanters mages necros druids shaman and beastlords.
Instant evac will make it impossible to kill a wizard
While these abilities ARE on a timer does it really matter? If its grossly unbalancing it doesn't matter if you can't do it very often. In 1 5 hour play period you could one shot 4 people with mannaburn and escape from 4 situtions that would otherwise have died in with instant evac. Generally speaking in most play sessions do you need to kill or escape much more than that?
Oh wait at 59 I get duelist and I can one shot sitting casters too. Yay now EQ can be even more like quake /sarcasm off
"-he ability to raise resists with points is not an upgrade it would cost more time exping than camping better resist gear would."
No, now you can have naked resistance, though on a lower scale then on a wizard. This is gearless resists, which count, even if it is very little (which I stated from the beginning barely counted becaue of cost). It does count though.
"-I know enough about pvp to know that full spell dmg at 1-50 would be a mistake."
Agreed. That's why I'm asking for it to taper off, not to remove the reduction across the board.
"-BTW I'd be easily in favor of any measure that would eliminate any means of 1 shot kills in pvp."
"So if a wizards with 1k hp and a 600 dmg mannaskin up gets hit he loses half his skin and is still at full hp on a single bs and is STILL at full hp minus skin on a double."
Are we comparing maximums or minimums?
"If you don't have skin up well thats your fault those peridots you use to cast it don't cost any more than my poisons."
This is not an equivelency. Do you constantly wander around with poisons loaded? I don't mean ready to be applied, I mean you always keep your weapons poisoned. Tho obvious answer is no. Just like I will skin myself before PvP, you will poison your blades before PvP. We do these things when we are picking the targets, not when we are the targets. So, irrelevant point.
"-I think its sad that people point out the fact that x rogue can take x wizard down to 1 bulb of hp when it requires so many conditions to come out that way and is a gross overstatement of rogues actual power."
I think it's sad that people point out the fact that x wizard can take x rogue down to 1 bulb of hp when it required so many condistions to come out that way and is a gross overstatement of wizards actual power.
"The problem is you are understating the limitations of rogues abilities and overstating yours. Like implying that requiring the wizard to get 4 spells off in order to kill someone is a ridiculous expectation. As a 55 rogue I don't think lures are too powerfull but I do think that if caster dmg improves by a full 50% it WILL be at that point overpowered."
Only asking for the 33% reduction to be slowly removed until it's gone at 60.
"Mannaburn will one shot rogues rangers bards monks wizards enchanters mages necros druids shaman and beastlords."
I haven't seen anything more then speculation on what exactly manaburn will do. Let's not factor it in until it's factored in.
"Instant evac will make it impossible to kill a wizard"
What? And HT makes it impossible to kill a shadowknight, right? LoH makes paladins never die too, I'm sure. It's kinda labeling to say wizards can't die because of something they can do once every 72 minutes, assuming they have climbed the skill tree that high.
"While these abilities ARE on a timer does it really matter? If its grossly unbalancing it doesn't matter if you can't do it very often. In 1 5 hour play period you could one shot 4 people with mannaburn and escape from 4 situtions that would otherwise have died in with instant evac. Generally speaking in most play sessions do you need to kill or escape much more than that?"
It is still on a timer though, regardless. Furthermore, almost none, if any, of those things have actually been tested in pvp, so this is pure speculation. In truth, most of this debate is null, because there is no conclusive evidence either side can rely on yet, simply because it does not exist.
As I recall, the exact same thing happened when disciplines were issues, before we knew the limitations on them, except it was all the other classes complaining because "rogues are pvp gods" syndrome. People were even freaking out about assassinate, which we later found out doesn't even work in pvp, and even if it could, wouldn't be able to be used outside one single server: sullon zek.
I don't mind debating any of this, and I'm enjoying it, but we really do need to realize most of this is mere speculation =/
Actually I have poisons up for most pvp fights because I know who my enemies are and watch the zone list. These are normally a low lvl snare poison that I can make from vendor bought components btw.
As far as fighting wizards even when I attack them they often have skin buffs up and I would consider a 600dmg double a damn good hit considering I don't think I've ever hit for more than a total of 700 unbuffed. Btw the chance of getting a 6 or 700 hit on a person who is not sitting is reasonably small.
Double bs at 55 are around 40% figuring 1/3 melee hits miss then around 17% of the time you get 2 hits which both land. if 1 in 5 is at the highest end of the range then 1 in 25 or 4% of the time would both hits be at the top of the range. So in other words its like 1 out of 150 attempts where we would get a hit for 700 or 800 dmg on a standing person. Thats sort of like the chance of getting 2 critical lures in a row.
We can leave out the alternate advancement @#%$ for now because its unneccesary to the main point of the thread which is if the spell dmg nerf should be lifted. I cannot speak for any other class but rogue in the 50+ game but from MY perspective as a 55 rogue with a lot of experience AS a rogue in pvp the spell dmg nerf is fair. You as far as I know never played your rogue to 50 canbik and although I don't know the lvl of your wizard on SZ my guess is hes not 55 now nor I bet is he even over 40.
Here is a brief description of rogue vs wiz pvp as I see it at 55. Both classes lean heavily towards offense and suprise and both have the ability to deal a large amount of dmg to an unwary foe. Indoors the rogue dominates for the most part because he can interupt a large portion of his oponents spells. Outdoors shadowstep and levitate give the wizard the advantage. In all cases the high offense and low defense means any mistake carries a heavy price. This means either the wizard being caught and backstabbed in midcast or the rogue letting the wizard get away and get a spell off.
Things that effect the outcome...
Levitate outdoors. Counterstrategies- pumice it Limitations to counter- You will probably take dmg while pumicing.
Shadowstep outdoors. Limitations- may take you to far Counterstagies watch for the particle effect where they reapear. Try to hit em with snare poison in a vally or other place where ss probably wont take them very far.
Poisons. Put these on whenever you think you MIGHT need them. Counterstrategies- Wear pr gear, use cure potions or ss away if possible.
Nukes delivered by an ambushing wizard. Counterstategies- Pay attention!
Catching the wizard medding and backstabbing. Counterstrategies- Pay attention!
Huge slow dds. Counterstrategies wear fr cr gear and never let them catch you offguard or have that long to cast.
Skin spells. Put these on whenever you think you MIGHT pvp and think the fight will be challenging. In addition if you are able to disingage you can recast it. Counterstragies lead off with a pumice and pumice more if you can manage it without getting nuked.
Sneak and invis. If your oponent doesn't have see invis up, and doesn't have a perma see invis item or you can pumice it off sneak or invis can provide you with valuable time to positon yourself for a nuke or backstab and avoid dmg.
The only thing that really is wrong with rogue vs wizard pvp is the lame line of sight exploits...
Think of it this way removing the spell dmg nerf means the wizards do 50% more dmg this is as bad as giving the rogues they fight 1/3 less hp to deal with the currently nerfed nukes. In other words like 800hp at 50 1100 at 55 and 1200 at 60. Try to imagine trying to pvp like that?
In case you didn't understand that say rogue00 is 60 with 1800 hp. Say wizard00 nukes him to death with 300dmg nukes. Would take 6 casts. Now remove the nerf and that nuke hits for 450 and takes 4 casts.
Now lets leave the nerf in but say rogue00 now has 1200 hp and is nuked to death with 300 dmg nerfed nukes. Takes 4 casts.
In other words a lvl 60 rogue facing nukes not subject to the spell dmg nerf will be killed JUST AS FAST as if he had 1200 hp vs nukes subject to the spell dmg nerf.
I honestly don't know how I could put it any more clearly.
The melee damage nerf would address the problem with one-shot kills. It would give casters who already suffer from being very weak in the high end PvP game a relative boost in power. It would also lower the problem with bards destroying other melee classes with damage shields only. It would fix the overpowering ranger archery. And last but not least, its a nice, easy and generic solution that I think appeals to the Verant coders.
This discussion can't focus on specific war stories on how cleric XXX killed warrrior YYY and therefore invalidates the suggestion to nerf melee damage.
I'm fairly sure that everyone that plays on either Vallon or Tallon Zek agrees with me, that balance in PvP is heavily tilted in favour of melee. That's why I'd like to discuss how to best solve this problem, instead of whether it exists or not.
I'm surprised you haven't commented on my suggestion to also nerf damage shields. Damage shields are the single biggest reason for rogues getting their butts kicked in PvP, I'd say (without having played a rogue to high levels in PvP). Right now they do 100% damage. The effect is that even weak damage shields will mess up a rogue when fighting for example SKs or rangers. If I fight a pally, my pet (hasted) typically beats the dust after 2-3 minutes, from a simple Ring8, which I find a bit silly as well.
I don't care if instakills are timed or not, if they are disciplines gained for free by dinging, or gained by spending AXP. They still have to be calculated into the equation.
Rogues aren't the top of the foodchain in PvP right now, in my opinion. Others disagree with me and claim that rogues are arguably the strongest PvP class out there. But that doesn't change my view, that melee damage / archery / dmg shields should be nerfed in PvP, as an overall balance improvement.
I suggest a test to show just how @#%$ rogues would be in pvp if melee dmg were to be nerfed.
Now a well equiped lvl 55 rogue on a pvp server probably has something like ragebringer + css. 15 25 and 12 24. Haste on rage is 40%
Now to simulate nerfed melee dmg you could give the rogue a slime coated harpoon and a yak. (note this is common equipment for a lvl 20 twink without much money to spend) The haste can be provided by a shaman or enc buff.
I suggest the rogue in question duel several types of casters his lvl twice. Once with epic + css, once with slimy and yak.
What would happen simply enough is the rogue would get annhilated. No ifs or buts about it. Your suggestion would make rogues laughable in pvp.
I challenge you to prove your position to be correct. Your position being that rogues are strong enough that above nerf is warranted. Find me a lvl 55 rogue who can take on lvl 55 casters with only a slimy and a yak and win.
Why should a rogue be able to "take out" a caster of similar level at all? A caster very rarely has the luxury to defeat a similar level rogue, much less a similar level shadowknight at level 55. You have to look at the bigger picture. Ask yourself why the last test of tactics had teams that were almost clinically free from casters.
With melee damage nerfed to 66%, a rogue can still do 1k instantly with a /disc duellist against a sitting target.
EDIT: See edit on your last post. Edited by: Fricka at: 12/29/01 2:10:12 pm
Woland take out should be read as successfully kill in pvp which I think was pretty clear. As to the idea that rogues shouldn't be able to "take out" a caster I would say that that is bull for a few reasons...
Class balance-Rogues are weak defensively and are strong offensively. Saying we should be weak both defensively and offensively is simply retarded.
We're assassins- Please no smart ass response stating something to the effect of "not till 60" because I'm not speaking of a title but of verants vision of the class and our role in the game. We are killers.
As to the big picture I'd say its you who doesn't get it...
The TOT was about a duel under ideal conditions between groups of people with some of the best gear in the game. This is a very different situation from your average pvp encounter. I think the fact that most of our pks on rallos are casters should tell you something about day to day pvp.
As for /disc duelist First off Id say what about levels 1-58!! You want to nerf our dmg in the first 58 lvls of the game based upon the dmg we can put out with a lvl 59 ability. That is ridiculous. If duelist is too powerful in pvp it should be modified...right after they look at mannaburn.
Next a little suggestion for you...Med with your back to the wall and you'll never have to worry about taking a duelist double while sitting.
Also before you cry too much about duelist remember if you move around while the disc is active you wont get hit due to the good old melee range bug.
"As for /disc duelist First off Id say what about levels 1-58!! You want to nerf our dmg in the first 58 lvls of
the game based upon the dmg we can put out with a lvl 59 ability. That is ridiculous. If duelist is too
powerful in pvp it should be modified...right after they look at mannaburn."
Rogue's get duelist when? 59? Wizards get manaburn when? About level 80 something (after AXP facotred in)?
EDIT: Sig once per thread please. Edited by: Fricka at: 12/29/01 11:07:31 pm
If each skill point is = to lvl 51 its actually kinda like doing 59 about 8 times over. Painfully tedious but people will get it, given enough time it will become pretty common. Duelist even if it is unbalanced (I wont give an opinion since I don't have the damn skill yet) even it is isn't near as harmful as mannaburn.
a) rogues aren't the pk class of choice for rallos zek
b) duelist can be avoided by moving around during the duelist period and not turning your back
c) duelist shouldn't grant users of it such a quick kill that they can't react, run, or be healed in a group unless they are caught sitting.
People can't look at melee dmg the same way they look at spell dmg. An unresistable spell will do x dmg in pvp 99.99% of the time. Mannaburn will always be a kill.
If you look at duelist and say well rogues can backstab for double 1106s you are getting an unclear picture. First off 20% of the time you will get only a single bs and it will miss or both backstabs in a double will miss. 60% of the time you will get a single backstab that lands. Around 20% of the time you will get a double where both land. Often enough you will also hit for either the minimum or towards the low end of your dmg range. Hits for max are rare.
Btw people are reporting gaining between aa points at a rate of 1 every 1.5 hours (pling with multiple comps) and 6 hours (a good group of 60s) Its like getting lvl 60. Some people will get there fast. Some people will take a lot longer but most will get there therefore the issue of pvp balance must be dealt with.
I think nerfing melee dmg and/ or removing the caster dmg nerf are very stupid ideas. People who say nerf melee dmg have obviously never played a melee 50+ and people who say remove spell dmg nerf have obviously never been killed in 2 casts from a 60 wiz.
Ice spear of Solist does 750ish dmg pvp. With my chanter, when I've been fully dispelled, I have about 900-1k hp. Sunstrike kills me in one shot~ Pretty much every fight that I don't start, I am fighting completly buffless (thx insta cast golem wands) and usually am not wearing my resist gear in my own team's zones. Wands are recharable for a price, and money is not an issue 55+. Removing the spell dmg nerf would mean I get hit for for 1200 dmg in 4 seconds. It takes me longer than 4 seconds to stand up, target the enemy, and cast an interupt spell. Basicly I would die every time a wiz zones in and I don't notice them right away. I don't see the challenge in that.
Nerfing melee dmg is a joke. Sorry but if you get PK'd by a monk or warrior you are either stuck indoors, rooted/ snared, afk, or an idiot. Melees own high lvl pvp because they are hard to kill, but it's next to impossible for them to solo pk you. Just because one or two melee classes are dangerous (like they should be) does not mean that all melees should suffer a nerf. A 60 rogue, warrior, SK, or whatever should be feared, not be tanked by lvl 55 chanters ;p
EVERY melee will destroy you in seconds if you don't catch him outdoors and he is alone AND you get the chance to jump him.
PvP in HL is DEFINITELY imbalanced. Yeah you all talk about wizzies making some insane damage, but to give you a hint, wizards are not the only caster class.... mages e.g. are casters, too and their pet was hit by the PvP nerf, TOO. Melees can prevent caster damage with Resistance.. where is the robe, which gives casters 1k AC to prevent melee dmg???
I have seen monks hit for 300dmg in 0.1 secs and I have seen rogues double backstab for 1k damage, SKs HT for 1,5k!!!! And this is not rare, because casters have weak AC, so melees WILL hit for max dmg OFTEN. What is the point?
Casters have been nerfed, because Wizzards could destroy others with one shot. This was PREKUNARK. Postkunark melees are able to do the same, so they MUST be nerfed.
If you play on a zek server you know where the fights will often be.... in dungeons... and a warrior whacking casters for double 200 is not very funny. Bards destroy you Rogues because of his DS.
Manaskin costs 1 Peridot btw and lasts about 1 hour average, counting in that mobs often hit you. I never have that up as a caster.
I play a HL rogue and I destroy every caster... I play a HL necro and I have nearly no chance against melees in my level, can you say golem wands?
Rogue is by far not the best PvPer... SKs are... !!! Rogues are great, but they don't have tools. One invis and they are screwed.
Now you own any caster in game and you are lucky that you are no caster, I feel with you, that you are afraid of loosing your status and have REAL fights, not destroying casters in one tick. But come on, it is all about competition.
Try and play a caster or simply believe those who play casters.
And to those who say don't play casters or don't play in high levels... *laugh* come and we play quake a bit, so you see how good you are, when the odds are EQUAL. And tell this to the enchanter mezzing the mobs whacking on you.
K I play a 56 chanter on a pvp server, NOT RALLOS. Everyone has like 150+ mr. I've died twice to *solo* even con PK's. In over 55 days /played on this char, I've died TWICE to a solo even con. Guess what class? Not melee, wizard. One time I died in 2 shots, and one time I died in one shot.
I've been chased around by lvl 60 warriors with SoC speed horse, primal weapons and ToV gear, and they still can't kill me as easily as a wiz could.
Melee vs caster obviously needs a fix, casters generally can't touch melees and melees can't touch moving casters. But nerfing melee dmg is not the answer!
"EVERY melee will destroy you in seconds if you don't catch him outdoors and he is alone AND you get the chance to jump him."
First off I think the seconds part is kind of an exaggeration...
Next lets break this down....
Alone...You think you should be able to quad kite melees maybe?
Outdoors...So casters own outdoors (see this statement)
"I've been chased around by lvl 60 warriors with SoC speed horse, primal weapons and ToV gear, and they still can't kill me as easily as a wiz could."
and melees have a big advantage indoors. Isn't that called balance?
And you get the chance to jump him. Learn to jump people more. As a pure offensive class you like me will do best when you take the initiative. You like me pay the price for your powerful offense with weak defense. Most fights you are either jumped or you jump someone. As an offensive class you wont do well when your jumped.
In addition a few minor points...
About going around a corner to avoid a 6 second spell. 6 seconds is a long ass cast. Has it occured to you that if they just meleed you for the whole 6 seconds you would be interupted anyway? I don't see that being used much as a pvp tactic. I only see it as a nerf of LOS exploiting.
About harmtouch, its 1k in pvp at 60, sick indeed but lets not exagerate k?
About double 1k backstabs with disc (every 30 minutes) unless your caught siting with your back to your oponent. A very disagreeable position to be caught in by ANY class vs any other class btw. You will see double 1k backstabs far less often than you will see back to back crits with lure of ice which would by the way have the very same effect on a rogue sitting or standing (DEATH). This isn't even taking into acount the ungodly damage of mannaburn.
About describing melee dmg. If you say you can hit for x dmg, x being the max hit. You will give a wildly incorrect idea of the actual dmg done in combat. If you wish to rationally debate melee dmg its far better to deal with the average dmg and take into acount misses.
If you want to rationally debate it perhaps you should go on to describe how and why your dmg done to dmg taken ratio is out of whack in all or most situations rather than exagerated ranting.
In other words if a 60 rogue starts with 1800-2000 hp and you begin with 1200 hp + 600 dmg from a mannaskin (btw if you don't know how to use your rune type spells in pvp you shouldn't damn well be playing pvp) Also note I've suggested golem wands be nerfed.
The question would be why can't you do between 1 and 1.11 dmg for every point of dmg you take on average. Clearly you most likely can't fighting a prepared oponent indoors but not all of pvp is indoors nor are all your oponents prepared. Pick your battleground and take the initiative.
You didn't adress the fact btw that I suggested nerfing both golem wands and the bard charm exploit. Nor adress the nerfing of the pet assist trick.
Manaburn is sick sick sick. It simply should not work in PvP at all. Intant kills should not work in PvP. Or at least appropriate rewards should be removed from manaburn kills (RZ=corpse unlootable just as it is after HT, SZ=no insignia, not sure about VZ/TZ).
Full PvP damage to spells? There will be no casters left on PvP servers other than wizards, not enough hps to take that kind of damage.
As far as nerfing melee damage on any level... NO NO and NO. I made a career pking people on RZ at level 24(I do have 2 characters at 55+ nowdays). As a necro I fought twinked people who hit close to 100 at 24, at 24 100 is 1/3rd-1/4th of my unbuffed total hps. And nevertheless I've killed and looted quite a few of them. I am flexible enough as a caster to get away and use range and LoS advantage against most melees. I don't know about fights in the open(give necros need tracking ) but in towns casters are not killable by melees 1v1.
The absence of casters from ToT teams speaks against ToT format not weakness of casters. If you are confound to arena where you can't move freely you can't get away, your opponent knows exaclty where you are and movement debuffers don't stick because of uber mr, you can't get a spell off. I guess manaburn would *balance* arena environment for one class of casters while screwing everyone else outside the arena.
And on a similar note to Aerimus ersonaly I don't think rogues are not meant to fight solo PvE or PvP. Time to make some friends.
"I am flexible enough as a caster to get away and use range and LoS advantage against most melees."
Read she exploits LOS to fight people she could never take without cheating. Pathetic.
"And on a similar note to Aerimus ersonaly I don't think rogues are not meant to fight solo PvE or PvP. Time to make some friends."
I'll respond as if that sentence actually makes sense...
-EQ rogues are killers. Due to game design reasons in pve they cannot do this solo. This isn't true in pvp. While their are issues that make it hard its perfectly viable to get solo kills in pvp as a rogue.
-Your dismissal of solo pvp is premature and foolish. If you want to kill anyone you better be able to stand up for yourself without 3 friends. If you don't want to run like a whipped dog every time a caster zones in you better be able to stand up for yourself without 3 friends. For a class with weak defense a strong offense is a neccesity. Some classes are not good at getting kills but these classes are generally speaking strong defensively. Thats called balance.
I think melees are neither as badly off as our exploitive necro here would think nor as well off as some envious people that want melee dmg nerfed think they are.
100% spell dmg and 66% melee dmg are both foolish concepts pure and simple. Pvp does have problems and more problems in fact each time verant adds on to EQ but this is NOT a solution.
buh. I am agreeing with you and you are turning it into a flame. You making too many assumptions dude. Gnome rogues circle strafing around an ogre warrior are abusing LoS too? I am ganker I need to know exactly where the person dies in order to loot. Nuking from hell knows where and not being able to find the corpse doesn't exactly serve my purposes.
you guys (and gals) there's something you're forgetting; at least on the caster's end, i do realize it is feasible for a rogue to sneak up on a caster and BS him or her while he or she is medding. This is why you (at 35+) get automed; sit, change your view so you can see all around you, and put on see invis. Then scroll all the way out, and if you have quick reflexes, that's not an option. Also, this is only available for rogues on Rallos. Quite simply, on Sullon Zek, (where i play) I can't get a single backstab off on a caster, simply because they're all higher level than me by at least 20, and any others gate, and lastly, those who don't fit into either category, are evil, so they tend to have nasty see invis items and major HP boots.